Maton C50 neck reset

[Alan]

Hi there, it’s a long time since I’ve posted.
I had a grand plan to build acoustic guitars upon retirement. As a former Industrial Arts teacher, I thought my love of both guitar and woodwork would combine with a new and exciting hobby.
Well, it took me 5 years to build my first guitar under the expert guidance of a local luthier half my age. I found the skill level way above that required to teach basic woodwork to high school students and my desire for perfection was not matched by the skill level I really had.
Anyway, my question is about a newly acquired 1971 Maton C50 Classical Guitar, purchased last week. Now some of you may be of the opinion that Maton Classicals weren’t their best instruments but I have a sentimental attachment to them having purchased a Maton C30 brand new in 1964 and it was the instrument on which I did most of my learning and playing. I still have that C30 which was beautifully restored by Chris Ffinch at Maton in 2006.
Getting back to the C50, I checked it out and played it carefully before purchasing and noted the action was a bit high but went ahead with the purchase anyway because the finish was really good with absolutely minimal damage - almost new in appearance and the rosewood back and sides were gorgeous. I also liked it’s tone, sweet if a tad soft.
I had intended to fit it with a new set of Savarez Corum strings over the weekend - I like the brighter tone of the flouro-carbon trebles but noticed the saddle height had been reduced as much as it could be - I’d missed that on assessing the guitar before purchase. I came to the conclusion that the extra tension of the Savarezs wouldnt help the situation as the forward bending of the neck was the issue. Unfortunately the C50 doesn’t have a truss rod even though my much older C30 does - puzzling.
In reality, the C50 probably needs a neck reset. My question is - who has any experience in resetting necks on Maton Classicals and what might be the ballpark price of having it done professionally.
Sorry for the verbose post

[kiwigeo]

Yeah those Savarez strings have a bit of tension when they're strung up...especially the reds.

How you go about a neck reset depends on how the neck is attached to the body.

If the guitar is built Spanish method then the neck is supported against the back by the spanish foot. Changing neck rake involves taking off the back and trimming or shimming the foot and then replacing the back.

If neck and body are separate units then it a straight forward neck set involving removal of neck and trimming the neck tenon cheeks.

Hi there, it’s a long time since I’ve posted.
I had a grand plan to build acoustic guitars upon retirement. As a former Industrial Arts teacher, I thought my love of both guitar and woodwork would combine with a new and exciting hobby.
Well, it took me 5 years to build my first guitar under the expert guidance of a local luthier half my age. I found the skill level way above that required to teach basic woodwork to high school students and my desire for perfection was not matched by the skill level I really had.
Anyway, my question is about a newly acquired 1971 Maton C50 Classical Guitar, purchased last week. Now some of you may be of the opinion that Maton Classicals weren’t their best instruments but I have a sentimental attachment to them having purchased a Maton C30 brand new in 1964 and it was the instrument on which I did most of my learning and playing. I still have that C30 which was beautifully restored by Chris Ffinch at Maton in 2006.
Getting back to the C50, I checked it out and played it carefully before purchasing and noted the action was a bit high but went ahead with the purchase anyway because the finish was really good with absolutely minimal damage - almost new in appearance and the rosewood back and sides were gorgeous. I also liked it’s tone, sweet if a tad soft.
I had intended to fit it with a new set of Savarez Corum strings over the weekend - I like the brighter tone of the flouro-carbon trebles but noticed the saddle height had been reduced as much as it could be - I’d missed that on assessing the guitar before purchase. I came to the conclusion that the extra tension of the Savarezs wouldnt help the situation as the forward bending of the neck was the issue. Unfortunately the C50 doesn’t have a truss rod even though my much older C30 does - puzzling.
In reality, the C50 probably needs a neck reset. My question is - who has any experience in resetting necks on Maton Classicals and what might be the ballpark price of having it done professionally.
Sorry for the verbose post

[Alan]

Thanks Martin,
The Savarez reds are a high tension string made, if I’m correct from traditional nylon. The Savarez Corums are a newer type of string using Flouro-carbon for the trebles - I like their brighter sound but the load is greater than “normal” normal tension D’Daddario EJ45’s - I think that’s what I’ll use on this guitar until the neck issue is addressed.
I’m pretty sure these early Maton’s used a dovetail neck joint rather than the Spanish Heel used in traditional classical guitars - but I’ll put a mirror inside to check this. On the Facebook Vintage Maton group someone suggestion PVA may have been used by Maton in the early 19670’s so steam dismantling would be possible as a last resort. Another suggestion was Casein glue - not sure if this comes apart with heat.
On a closer inspection of the fretboard last night, I noticed that it is quite thin and gets even thinner past the 12th fret over the body. This could mean it may be possible to replace the fretboard tapering it thicker rather than thinner up higher. I’ll have to do some careful measuring. That would allow the addition of a double acting truss rod.
The last thing I want to attempt is steaming open and chiselling the dovetail joint - I’m not confident to do that.
Anyway, thanks again for your reply.

[Taffy Evans]

Hi Alan, without seeing the actual guitar it's hard to give a spot-on answer. But in your description of the high action you mentioned a bowed neck and no truss rod, this led me to think that it is not a resetting of the neck that is required but a leveling of the neck or fingerboard.

If the neck is bowed up then after resetting the neck, if that is what is done, you will still have an issue. I have worked on many old Matons and found that the old glue goes dry and goes powdery, on braces anyway, and lets go easily at times.

Resetting a neck especially if it's not already loose is an expensive exercise, a cost that could run you $400 - $500.

Let's hope it's a bowed neck. What I have done in the past is remove the fingerboard, level the neck, and insert a carbon fiber reinforcement bar. Reusing the original fingerboard if possible would save the cost of a refret.
Cheers Taff

[Alan]

G’day Taff,
Many thanks for your reply,
I need to take it into the workshop and check it thoroughly taking notes and measurements.
I think it’s a bowed neck and I’m more inclined to remove the fretboard and add carbon fibre reinforcement as you suggested or even a double acting truss rod - I think it’s puzzling that my much older, lower model Maton C30 classical has a truss rod and this one doesn’t. The last thing I want to do is steam off and re chisel the dovetail- I’m not confident enough to do that especially on a guitar with a very good finish.
I did notice last night that the fretboard is quite thin and gets even thinner from the 12th fret upwards over the body. I was thinking it might be possible to have a slightly tapered fretboard that actually gets thicker as it gets higher, reducing the action up there.
I did a YouTube search and found Robbie O’Brien solving high action on a Ramirez by planing the fretboard at the nut end, and reducing the height of the nut. I don’t think that would work on this guitar as the fretboard is quite thin anyway.
Thanks again
Alan
ps: I’ll also have a check inside the body for loose braces as you mentioned. It doesn’t sound like it has that issue. Canberra climate might be a bit kinder to acoustics than Queensland.

[Taffy Evans]

Hi again, not related to your present neck problem, but shown as a matter of interest.

This old Maton cross brace's glue let go and somebody tried to hold it with a screw. I undid the screw and the cross brace fell to the bottom of the guitar.

Taff

[Alan]

Wow,
Looks like heat and humidity took its toll on this 12 string.
The screws/bolts on the bridge look to be added - if that’s correct then it might have been someone’s answer to a lifting bridge.
I wouldn’t mind having an old 12 string to work on. The last time I owned a 12 string was in 1967. If my memory serves me correctly I purchased it for $50 and sold it to a colleague for $40. However, as a mainly nylon string player, I find them hard to play.

[kiwigeo]

I've always marveled at Ralph Towner and his ability to play with his nails on both classicals and 12 strings

However, as a mainly nylon string player, I find them hard to play.

[WJ Guitars]

On side my first guitar that I purchased was a Maton !2 String Guitar, Model No. FG150. It is now 52 years old and around 15 years ago all the frets were replaced, Schaller Mini Tuners, new rosewood bridge and West pickup installed. This work was undertaken by Jeff Mallia, (specialist guitar repairs and restoration). The guitar case fell apart and was replaced. This guitar sounds amazing and has a nice low action making it easy to play once you are use to playing a 12 string acoustic guitar. See Photos.

Wayne

[Alan]

Gday Wayne
Your 12 string looks fantastic - great restoration.
As I said I mainly play nylon string guitar. I used to have a Maton 325 which the custom built for me in 1992 with a wider than standard neck. I’ve given that to my son as I now have a 6 string OM size steel string that I made working under the instruction of a great Canberra guitar builder. I find that harder to play as I still haven’t got the string height right so it’s hard on the left hand and I only play it with a plectrum as the steel strings are hard on my fingernails, sometimes slicing them off. I find plectrum playing limiting as I so used to playing fingerstyle on nylon.
So 12 string would be even harder for me on both hands - left hand fretting and right hand plectrum.
However, I love the jangley sound of a 12 string.