Falbo Intension Bridge

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lamanoditrento
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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by lamanoditrento » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:15 pm

I have response curves that prove my point, but its a hornet's nest if I just post them without the support it needs for people to understand it all. The best vehicle will probably be a video series with images AND audio simultaneously, so I can show people what they're about to hear, and they can hear it in real time.
Frank, a lot of the members of this forum are devotees of Trevor Gore's work 'Contemporary Acoustic Guitar Design &Build', in which tapping the guitar; recording and examining the resulting FRC features a lot. This building styles tries to, inter alia, ensure resonant frequencies of the air (Helmhotz resonance), soundboard and back plates are off musical note frequencies so as not to cancel note frequencies or their harmonics. These FRCs are not taken from a played guitar or a plucked string but from the striking the guitar itself (normally near the bridge area on the soundboard). I reckon most of us would be happy with just one FRC like this to look at and relate to the framework we use in our builds.

Here is one of mine for example:
Classical Radial Brace Top Test No Finish.JPG
The first frequency peak at 101.6hz being the Helmhotz is sitting between Ab and A. I suggest that is what your earlier post was referring to with your guitar – 80hz sitting between Eb and E.

You are right, these will not give you a complete picture such as amplitude etc but it will give us an idea without peering at the internals under the soundboard. I also hope that this thread shows that while we are all up for robust debate, it won't descend into a hornet's nest.
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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by frankfalbo » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:04 am

First, the hornets nest comment was about the internet at large. I did not mean here. This place is great. I don't mean you guys. But if I share something here it's permanent & searchable. I hope no one took that comment about here.

Yes I'm aware of the connection here to Trevor's work. I will try to make the most concise point on that, forgive me if it seems incomplete. Also it is not derogatory. I support that approach for traditional design, but all of it seems to center around two things:
1. Taking readings prior to the plates being attached, simulating attachment at the border, and after the box is built.
2. Driving the top (motor) in a way that is not the same as the way the strings vibrate the top.
Neither of these two things make it "wrong". It is beautifully suited to replicating things we know we like. But the top changes under tension and torque. So to say that a free top plate with a spike at F# will "sound good when playing in F#" ignores both the 175lbs of tension and the phase incoherencies when the F# chord is struck. Anecdotally, those guitars of mine that have a resonance around 80hZ still open up and sound huge in drop D. They have no deficiency at the tritone, 7th, 9th, etc.

As to whether a resonance lands directly on a musical pitch vs a quarter or half tone away, my position is that for the disassociation to musical notes to be responsible for improving the guitar's tone across all the key centers, is validation of the phase incoherencies and comb filtering I'm talking about reducing.

Again not a dismissal of these methods. Trevor's work in its entirety is absolutely fine by me. I'm just pointing out how those things don't tell the whole story of what I'm trying to say here, that my torque arrangement does things that will need to be demonstrated in a different way. That's a marketing conundrum for me, and makes for long, boring discussions with luthiers like yourselves and I thank you for continuing to engage.

Bryan Galloup was at the Santa Barbara Acoustic festival. We discussed this for a long time at his booth before he came by mine. In the discussions, he was (rightfully) challenging everything I was saying and interested enough to come see my guitars. (He has a nice cantilever bridge design that lets the bridge be at the back of the instrument, but drive it from the center, in a similar phase aligned way, on a bass)

Eventually he tapped the dread into his iPhone and an analyzer app, and while I don't want to speak for Bryan, confirms the resonances I'm talking about, and then congratulates me on good work. Again I don't speak for him and make no attempt to use his name, suggest that he approves or supports my design or career. Just that there was a bit of skepticism reversed when in person.

I spoke with Martin Taylor of the Australian Guitar Making School and we had a great exchange followed by him saying something like my jumbo was the best sounding guitar he'd heard in the hall so far. He could very well have just been being kind. Perhaps he thought it was terrible. But at face value he was understanding what I said the design was doing, AND then he heard and felt the results first-hand.

By no means do I want anyone to change anything about the way you make guitars, and the way you implement Trevor's research and wisdom. This is a situation unique to me. I bear the burden of demonstrating levels of phase coherency but it will be quite some time before I have a clean bulletproof way of presenting it to the public. In the meantime the sound of my guitars will have to do, and the flowery analogous descriptive terms I use, along with my magnetic personality. :|

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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by seeaxe » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:44 am

A little humour does wonders when the teckerlogical going gets heavy, doesn't it? :D

Picking up on Franks point about visibility on the inter web, there will be more than a few members here that are also on the OLF and presumably others. We've seen plenty of threads cross over so while there's little upside for Frank here, there could be a significant downside if this thread were to turn into an attempted demolition job, so it's great that it isn't.

Personally, I don't think it's fair to expect Frank to explain his design in terms of Trevor's approach. He has come from a different place and clearly has a different view. For the record though, I understand most tap test results (posted by people on this forum at least) used to compare the finished products are done with the strings on and fully tuned to pitch. Mine certainly were. Sure tap tests are done at others stages to guide the process, that is what most of us find so attractive about the GG approach.

Anyone who is trying to build guitars as a business needs to market them, so I personally have no problem viewing this discussion as part of a wider marketing exercise. But if Frank is working towards a bulletproof description of his design, I still think a bit more precision in the use of technical terms would help a lot. For example torque, bending moment and couple are all different terms describing the same thing. Maybe just pick one and stick to that? And combining them eg torque moment is even more confusing. I also think the motor analogy is confusing. The only motive power is the string vibration. There's stored energy in a strung guitar but there's no motor running until someone plays it.

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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by jeffhigh » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:04 am

Frank.
You seem to have a few misconceptions about Trevor's method. A few examples

-Free plate testing is specifically NOT a feature of it. The test that matters is when fully strung up. Free plate tuning is Alan Carruth's baby.

-Tap testing on the strung up bridge does actually replicate the transverse drive of the strings. It is however about identifying the resonance peaks in the guitar and not about which chord will sound good.

-Placing resonance peaks between scale notes is not about "disassociation to musical notes to be responsible for improving the guitar's tone across all the key centers", It is purely about avoiding wolf notes due to overcoupling between a note and a corresponding body resonance.

I'm not going to make any further comment on your system since we do not really have any details on it other than the patent which is apparently not really fully descriptive. if it works for you that is good.

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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by lamanoditrento » Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:17 am

So to say that a free top plate with a spike at F# will "sound good when playing in F#" ignores both the 175lbs of tension and the phase incoherencies when the F# chord is struck.
I don't think anyone here is saying that
1. Taking readings prior to the plates being attached, simulating attachment at the border, and after the box is built.
To expand on what others have mentioned, there is free plate FRC tap testing in Trevor's method but it is about working out Young's modulus for designing structural rigidity/integrity. These can also be worked out by measuring load deflection.
Anecdotally, those guitars of mine that have a resonance around 80hZ still open up and sound huge in drop D. They have no deficiency at the tritone, 7th, 9th, etc.
Drop D still occurs on musical notes. Try tuning using A4 at 430hz instead of 440hz.
the disassociation to musical notes to be responsible for improving the guitar's tone across all the key centers, is validation of the phase incoherencies and comb filtering I'm talking about reducing.
Could you please expand on this at all Frank? I think I have a rudimentary understanding of phase incoherencies but comb filtering...

Also can I ask how you brace your back?
Personally, I don't think it's fair to expect Frank to explain his design in terms of Trevor's approach. He has come from a different place and clearly has a different view.
In some respects, I agree. It was a little cheeky to press Frank for an FRC after he has clearly expressing his preference not to post them. My apologies Frank, no disrespect was intended.

In other respects however I disagree. In trying to understand Frank's method and I have to fit it into a framework of knowledge I have. A lot of what Frank has explained fits neatly in with what I understand from Trevor's work. Trevor talks about the top monopole accounting for 40% of the radiating power from a guitar. Trevor also talks about lattice braced classical guitars favouring monopole mobility for producing more projection/being louder. Frank states his design allows less bracing and therefore less mass resulting in a low/er resonance frequency of top and more amplitude, all of which fits squarely. Trevor also touches on phase alignment is several places in his book. Both Trevor and Frank seem to have a scientific approach, their ideas should be able to be discussed in the same breath. The difference is Trevor's method is published with defined meanings. One of the reason I specifically mentioned Trevor's tap testing method was to make sure we weren't attaching different meaning to the same terms.
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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by seeaxe » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:21 pm

I think that's fair comment Trent, I take your point about published versus not published.
I'm not trying to stifle discussion either.

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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by Deems Davis » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:18 pm

[quote="frankfalbo" I'm just pointing out how those things don't tell the whole story of what I'm trying to say here, that my torque arrangement does things that will need to be demonstrated in a different way. That's a marketing conundrum for me, and makes for long, boring discussions with luthiers like yourselves and I thank you for continuing to engage.
,,,,,,
This is a situation unique to me. I bear the burden of demonstrating levels of phase coherency but it will be quite some time before I have a clean bulletproof way of presenting it to the public. In the meantime the sound of my guitars will have to do, and the flowery analogous descriptive terms I use, along with my magnetic personality. :|[/quote]

Frank, I'm not sure what 'different way' exists to resolve your conundrum. Flowery language, magnetic personality and descriptions of sound are all completely subjective. It seems that the only convincing path forward is to perform some tests and measurements that can be repeated and duplicated by others, that substantiate your claims. I for one would be ecstatic for such information. If its a question of not knowing what or how to construct the tests/measures, I'm sure there are several on this forum that would be willing to offer their expertise to assist. If it's a mater of the test and measurement revealing secret/proprietary technology, then, I fear you're left to deal in the world of subjective's. and that unfortunately leaves you in the company of a multitude of others who have gone before you.

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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by frankfalbo » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:39 pm

Maybe I'll explain it this way: Measuring frequency response is like measuring a monitor for brightness and color density. What I'm talking about would be like measuring the focus. Phase alignment is more akin to focus. The brightest, most colorful television may not be the clearest. In the same way a lack of focus smears the visual, phase smearing makes audio less focused as it cuts through the air.

Wolf notes are not just a product of pitch-matched resonance, but a combination of resonance with comb filtering and cancellation elsewhere in the frequency range. Someone asked, what if I tuned my guitar to A430 or otherwise drop tuning until I "found" the problem area. That's not how it works on my guitars. I can play a chord with horrifically dissonant notes and they all still all ring out for a long time, together. Then, I can detune several of the strings by by random amounts and the notes all still ring out without excessive beating and modulation. That sort of carnival trick doesn't mean much in and of itself. It's not often we are asking for our guitars to successfully sustain out-of-tune chords. But the reaction to dissonance, inside the feedback loop between the strings and the guitar's top IS indicative of the phase balance. A frequency response curve of a given chord won't show you the top beating against itself. It won't show how after 1.5 seconds one of the notes in the chord has completely disappeared.

If you guys have suggestions as to how I'm supposed to put that into a graph, I'm all ears! The result is not just a guitar that responds to the signal from the strings differently ("better" if you like that sort of thing) The difference is in how the guitar sounds a few feet away...20 feet away...30 feet. The audio passes through the air more effectively. It disturbs microphone diaphragms with more focus and less smearing. These are things I know to be true, and when someone plays my guitar they have the "aha moment" and can hear and feel what I'm talking about. Since I'm not an independently wealthy millionaire, I have to play the long game, and wait until more and more people hear and buy them. Otherwise I would ship sample guitars all around the globe.

As always, none of this is confrontational in nature, thank you for the continued energetic discussion. If I could fly across the globe and show you what I mean, I would.

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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by DarwinStrings » Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:08 pm

frankfalbo wrote: 2. Driving the top (motor) in a way that is not the same as the way the strings vibrate the top.
I have read your replies to me Frank and I am getting the picture that you are describing the tension force (in the way the string vibrates) as the driver of the bridge (this quote above seems to relate to that as well). That is to say it seems you are saying that the tension force in the vibrating string rocks the top of the saddle forwards(towards the nut) when it is applied and then as that force comes back to zero when the string passes through its rest position the top of the saddle rocks back(towards the tail). So if I have it correct you are saying that it is this force that rocks the bridge to drive the long dipole mode on a guitar with the usual pinned bridge.

Have I got that right Frank?
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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by frankfalbo » Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:03 pm

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/v ... p?t=101819

Trevor and Alan speak appropriately of it here. They are concluding/teaching that what we hear is a combination of in phase and out of phase sound. What I'm saying is that the way I drive the top produces less phase arguments.

I don't want to get bogged down in semantics here, but when I talk about the use of drivers to drive audio into the guitar, what I'm really pointing out is that they do not form a feedback loop in the way the strings do. That doesn't make it wrong. Just wrong for explaining what my bridge does differently than a torqued bridge. You can say that the resonances they expose are the equivalent; that they will predict the arguments that the top will have with the strings. And that's fine, for a torqued bridge. It's fine because you're working with known entities. So even though I can find a technical flaw between the two, it's not important for normal guitar design. But this delta, between a driver with a fixed/constant energy behind it vs a string with a decaying energy, is that the top will affect the strings ADSR envelope. It will not really affect the driver's feedback loop.

My design is different in that it changes both the way the top vibrates, and the way the top communicates back to the string, affecting all the things Alan and Trevor are referring to in that thread.

What they're saying about the way the microphone identifies the phase irregularities more effectively than the human ears which are hearing the convolution of all sources and surfaces, is in total agreement with what I've said. My bridge design does not exhibit that phenomenon, to the same extent.

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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by DarwinStrings » Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:34 pm

Any chance you could just answer my simple question about how strings drive the top Frank?

The link you shared does not relate to my simple question.

I should not have added that quote try my question again and forget your quote is there please.
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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by jeffhigh » Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:14 pm

I think Frank has a different relationship to the English Language than the rest of us.

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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by frankfalbo » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:36 am

DarwinStrings wrote:Any chance you could just answer my simple question about how strings drive the top Frank?

The link you shared does not relate to my simple question.
Are you setting a trap right now? No I wouldn't answer a leading question in which you set the phrasing, then declare (twice) that it is a simple question, when there is nothing simple about it.

The string has the potential to vibrate the top in infinite directions. It's up to us to decide which to harness, which to leverage, to stifle, etc. I have not suggested that modulation in tension between static and above static is, in isolation, the sole driver of long dipole.

Look at a Babicz bridge for example. For the sake of illustration let's not worry whether his strings fan out behind the bridge, or if they'd gone straight back like a trapeze tailpiece. The point is, he didn't have enough downward pressure on the saddle. So he goes through a string tree type mechanism lower than the saddle height, to create downward pressure, in order to come up, over the saddle. In this case, the tension modulation is absorbed mostly by the rims, or the outside of the guitar, beyond the dipole. It's the torque arrangement he imparts at the bridge that generates long dipole.

If there's something I'm missing about your question I apologize. Maybe Jeff is right...

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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by DarwinStrings » Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:34 am

Frank, it does seem to me that what you have been getting at is that the tension force is the main top driver on a conventional bridge but that is difficult to understand because of the language you use. I was just trying to get it to basics rather than going off on a tangent.

You are correct the question is leading but it is also simple, I don't know you Frank and from what you have said in this thread so far (and in your videos) it seems to me that you don't have a great understanding of how a guitar works, I was just trying to establish if my impression was correct or incorrect.

While your claim that your guitars record better may be difficult to measure your claim that your bridge stifles or canceled the long dipole is easily measured with the combination of a spectrum graph and a chladni reading yet I get the impression that you have not done this even to prove it to yourself.

If you guitars are more sensitive than the average then you will need to be taking steps to deal with high admittance (low impedance) problems so you must do some sort of modal tuning post construction to get your low order mode off notes, if you guitars are not more sensitive then it's not a problem (this is why we like to see spectrum graphs). You have mentioned that the main air on you dreads is 80Hz which is lower than any fretboard note but it seems that you did not measure that.

I believe that trying to sell a guitar with six pin and bit key holes in the top is difficult in what is mostly a conservative market so I applaud you for trying something different.

So, as is my nature I will remain skeptical of your invention while you continue to use words rather than some measurable evidence to demonstrate how your guitar work differently.

Just like Deems I would love to see measurements that support your subjective opinions but until then your claims will remain in the realm of subjectivity where my opinion (right or wrong) is just as valid as yours
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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by frankfalbo » Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:24 pm

DarwinStrings wrote:I don't know you Frank and from what you have said in this thread so far (and in your videos) it seems to me that you don't have a great understanding of how a guitar works, I was just trying to establish if my impression was correct or incorrect.
You're incorrect, but apparently I can't fix what's making you wonder. Perhaps we'll meet in person someday.
DarwinStrings wrote:If you guitars are more sensitive than the average then you will need to be taking steps to deal with high admittance (low impedance) problems so you must do some sort of modal tuning post construction to get your low order mode off notes...
No, no I don't.
DarwinStrings wrote:You have mentioned that the main air on you dreads is 80Hz which is lower than any fretboard note but it seems that you did not measure that.
Of course I did.
DarwinStrings wrote:So, as is my nature I will remain skeptical of your invention while you continue to use words rather than some measurable evidence to demonstrate how your guitar work differently.
I'm absolutely fine with that.
DarwinStrings wrote:...until then your claims will remain in the realm of subjectivity where my opinion (right or wrong) is just as valid as yours
Fair enough, no worries.

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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by DarwinStrings » Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:43 pm

frankfalbo wrote:You're incorrect, but apparently I can't fix what's making you wonder. Perhaps we'll meet in person someday.
You could easily fix it, to describe the main driving force of the strings on the top would take about two lines or less. Also like I said a spectrum graph and some related chladni patterns would support your claim of a suppressed long dipole and that would be a start. Like they say extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof and you have the opportunity to do that here amongst builders that understand these things.

If we do meet please bring a guitar and I will do the measurements for you.
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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by frankfalbo » Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:59 am

Maybe this is off topic, but why is it that if I don't use terms lifted from someone's books or teachings, a formula from a physics professor, whether I agree to use an analysis method that mirrors one that you've used to verify things on a completely different design...that somehow the only conclusion you can reach is that I don't understand how a guitar works? Is it possible that it's you who doesn't fully understand all of the nuances of how a guitar works? We don't know one another. You don't know what I've seen and done in R&D across multiple companies

I think I've been extremely respectful here. I've told you repeatedly that a spectrum graph does not address the ADSR envelope or the top's response across the dynamic range, the speed...You can't accept that, and still demand that I provide data in a format you want, under stimulus you've dictated, because that's what you're familiar with using when analyzing a different design from mine, which exhibits different characteristics.

This burden of proof you're describing, is really only required when interfacing with potential customers for my guitars, and only if they demand it before they buy and enjoy their guitar. Let's establish the following:

-I'm not trying to sell anyone here a Falbo.
-I'm not trying to convince anyone here to license my design on their guitars.
-I'm not writing or selling a book, a guitar making course.

It's not important to me that you understand what I've invented. In fact as others mentioned, quite the opposite. If I make claims about the results of my invention, everyone who plays a Falbo reaches the same conclusion. They hear and feel what I've described. But you have given me some ideas for a few Facebook Live editions...

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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by kiwigeo » Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:20 am

frankfalbo wrote:
This burden of proof you're describing, is really only required when interfacing with potential customers for my guitars, and only if they demand it before they buy and enjoy their guitar.
We may seem like a "tough audience" but down here on the arse end of the planet we just take a little more convincing than the rest of the world. We tend to ask the questions that have to be asked. That said we do greatly appreciate you taking the time to address questions about your product.
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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by DarwinStrings » Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:22 am

frankfalbo wrote:Maybe this is off topic, but why is it that if I don't use terms lifted from someone's books or teachings, a formula from a physics professor, whether I agree to use an analysis method that mirrors one that you've used to verify things on a completely different design...that somehow the only conclusion you can reach is that I don't understand how a guitar works? Is it possible that it's you who doesn't fully understand all of the nuances of how a guitar works? We don't know one another. You don't know what I've seen and done in R&D across multiple companies
It is more than possible that I don't fully understand all the nuances of how a guitar works it is a reality Frank.
frankfalbo wrote:I think I've been extremely respectful here. I've told you repeatedly that a spectrum graph does not address the ADSR envelope or the top's response across the dynamic range, the speed...You can't accept that, and still demand that I provide data in a format you want, under stimulus you've dictated, because that's what you're familiar with using when analyzing a different design from mine, which exhibits different characteristics.
I have demanded nothing I am just offering you a opportunity and it is your choice to take it or not. A spectrum graph will support some of your claims not all of them and that would be a start.
frankfalbo wrote:This burden of proof you're describing, is really only required when interfacing with potential customers for my guitars, and only if they demand it before they buy and enjoy their guitar. Let's establish the following:

-I'm not trying to sell anyone here a Falbo.
-I'm not trying to convince anyone here to license my design on their guitars.
-I'm not writing or selling a book, a guitar making course.

It's not important to me that you understand what I've invented. In fact as others mentioned, quite the opposite. If I make claims about the results of my invention, everyone who plays a Falbo reaches the same conclusion. They hear and feel what I've described. But you have given me some ideas for a few Facebook Live editions...
Hey Frank you came here to explain your work, I did not drag you here. If you don't want to provide any measurable proof then you don't have to. All I have to go on is what you have said here and in you videos (I know nothing of your past) and from that I have formed the opinion that you seem to be missing some of the basics of how a guitar works that are easily demonstrated and like I said it is possible for you to address that but if you don't want to or cant then that's your choice.

Here is something I do know about how a guitar works. If your guitars are more sensitive than the average and as you say you do no post construction modal tuning then it is very likely that the frequency of you low order modes will occasionally fall on fret board notes and cause problems. If you guitars sensitivity is average then it won't be much of a problem. For example Greg Smallman builds very sensitive tops that suppress all the modes except the monopole(1mm thick western red cedar with balsa carbon fibre lattice bracing) If my memory is correct then he once said in a video that he spends more time in post construction tuning than he does building them, food for thought.
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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by DarwinStrings » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:11 pm

frankfalbo wrote:
What they're saying about the way the microphone identifies the phase irregularities more effectively than the human ears which are hearing the convolution of all sources and surfaces, is in total agreement with what I've said. My bridge design does not exhibit that phenomenon, to the same extent.
Trevor said this on the forum you linked to " The net result for a listener in a normal room is more a change in timbre than a significant change in loudness. However, close mic'ing picks up the differences, as it is possible to focus on single antinodes, which is why microphone placement is important when recording a guitar."

As I understand it Trevor is talking about mic placement and that it is possible with close micing to focus on a single antinode producing move volume from that mode (say the cross dipole which is the mode they were referring to)

This can also be heard by your ears. If you stand in front of the guitar like a listener then the cross dipole is probably the most phase cancelling of the lower order modes but if you are the player then your ear is closer to one antinode than the other and as the player you will hear more volume from the cross dipole than the listener does from being out in front and having their ears the same distance away from both antinodes.

You have said your bridge suppresses the long dipole. I can't see how your bridge suppresses the cross dipole so having said that you are still left with the same thing in that mic placement is still important when recoding
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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by seeaxe » Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:45 pm

Hi Frank, if you are still tuning in, thanks for posting and being part of one of the more interesting discussions on this forum for some time. When you first started posting I had a quick google and was impressed by what you have done in the past and the organisations you have been involved with...household names in the guitar world.

Frank's background seems to be in sound engineering (and maybe not maths and physics? - I don't know) and I assume he is using terms familiar to him in that environment. Frank kindly offered to answer specific questions, which he has spent considerable time doing with a great deal of good nature and with very typical USA politeness. It's probably fair to say that most of us don't understand the answers he has given us. Personally, I have no idea what he is saying and none of his explanations posts have made it much clearer to me. That just means I don't understand, I have no idea whether he is right or wrong. But so what?

So to my good mates on this forum, in my humble opinion is not very polite (and probably also incorrect) to say that someone else doesn't know how a guitar works just because they cannot, or perhaps choose not, to explain what they are doing in terms we understand or would like them to use. Especially when we all acknowledge we don't know it all either! So in aussie parlance, I think that's a bit on the nose, just my opinion of course.

He invited us to ask questions, we did, we don't like/understand/agree with the answers. Wouldn't it be better to give Frank the benefit of the doubt, thank him for his contribution and all move on?

Wouldn't that be a bit more gracious than getting all huffy because he won't post a response curve or a structural analysis when we ask him to?

Come on guys, we can be bigger than that....we don't want to start sounding like Michael Cheika, do we??? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Another 2 cents...will need to re-open my PayPal account at this rate.
Richard

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DarwinStrings
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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by DarwinStrings » Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:22 pm

seeaxe wrote:
So to my good mates on this forum, in my humble opinion is not very polite (and probably also incorrect) to say that someone else doesn't know how a guitar works just because they cannot, or perhaps choose not, to explain what they are doing in terms we understand or would like them to use. Especially when we all acknowledge we don't know it all either! So in aussie parlance, I think that's a bit on the nose, just my opinion of course.
Well I reckon you'd be talking to me there Richard. I was just being frank (pun intended) not impolite and what I said was that this was my impression or opinion I have formed from reading what Frank had had to say in some of his videos and on this forum and that I may be incorrect. The post I posted before this one is an attempt to show Frank what I mean and I do not intent offence I just want to be able to speak my mind.

I think it is a bit on the nose for you to try to pull me into line Richard, that is Bob and Martins job, they have done it before and no doubt if I get out of line again they will do it again.
Life is good when you are amongst the wood.
Jim Schofield

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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by kiwigeo » Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:06 pm

DarwinStrings wrote:
I think it is a bit on the nose for you to try to pull me into line Richard, that is Bob and Martins job, they have done it before and no doubt if I get out of line again they will do it again.
Take extra care you lot...my middle name is Frank :(
Martin

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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by DarwinStrings » Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:07 pm

If I have caused you any offence Frank then I apologise and also add another quote from you in trying to explain why I formed my opinion I will also say that my opinion could be formed by my misunderstanding or a communication problem and again, be inncorrect
frankfalbo wrote:
For example (on a torqued bridge) I could place two contact transducers on the top, one near the sound hole, the other behind the bridge. (The dipole delta) Both will have a measurable frequency response. But more importantly, if I overlay them against one another, they won't be phase aligned. So there's a phase smearing across the time constant, compounded by the smearing of the box reflections.

With the torque neutralized, the two signals are more phase aligned. That means they push audio into the air and the box with greater linearity.
The long dipole (you call it the dipole delta) by its nature has two antinodes that are always out of phase with each other as you said "they won't be phase aligned" so I fail to see how you could get these two anti nodes more in phase with each other no matter what you do to bridge rotation forces. To do that it seems to me you would need to negate the laws of physics.

Because of the shape of my guitars the two antinodes of the long dipole have two different sizes, the one below the bridge is much larger than the antinode in front of the bridge so I get good projection from that mode or less phase cancellation.
Life is good when you are amongst the wood.
Jim Schofield

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Re: Falbo Intension Bridge

Post by DarwinStrings » Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:09 pm

kiwigeo wrote: Take extra care you lot...my middle name is Frank :(
Martin Frank Kiwigeo, a nice ring to it perhaps it comes from the long dipole.
Life is good when you are amongst the wood.
Jim Schofield

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