What is "Hand Made"

[seeaxe]

But aren't items made with CNC machines just copies, not originals.
If you are employing some other form of intelligence to do the work, isn't that the same as buying it from a supplier.

Well, no, not necessarily. It may just be a more accurate way of making a fretboard, for example. But even if it is for reasons of repeatability, so what? Aren't we all striving for Gore-like consistency? I thought that was a good thing.

And I buy my tuners from a supplier, exactly because I know what they are like and I can rely on them being exactly the same each time. Likewise frets, bridge pins, strings. Would your philosophy mean that my guitars cannot be called hand made?

What do you do about tuners? Are you suggesting we should hand make them?

Plus a computer is not "another form of intelligence" as you are probably aware. They are exceedingly dumb, they can do only seven things, add, subtract, multiply or divide, determine whether one number is more than, less than or equal to another number. All the rest is done by the clever clogs programmers. And that would include the person setting up a CNC operation.

i reckon we should put this to a vote. Can't remember the last time we had one of those
Cheers
Richard

[old_picker]

If you are employing some other form of intelligence to do the work, isn't that the same as buying it from a supplier.

anyone who's had anything to with computers would know that there is no "other form of intelligence" involved in computer driven machinery. in fact a computer has no more intelligence than a hammer. A human drives a hammer the same as a human drives a computer. A computer of course is a much more complex tool than a hammer but lets not confuse complexity and sophistication with other forms of intelligence.

One of the reasons I've never bothered with CNC here is because of the time and expense involved in learning the software and setting up the machinery. I have a pretty good understanding of computers having worked as field technician for 12 years back in the heyday.

A personal decision based on my age and the amount of time I have left working full time. I'd rather spend that time building guitars than taming a cnc set up. Great for younger bloke of course and 20 years ago I could not have stopped myself

btw a vote is good idea - we've had the discussion - do we now summarise the viewpoints?

[Graham Long]

If things made with a CNC aren't simply a copy, what are they, you can't call them an original.
More to the point if they were an original, ie no other exactly the same, what's the point in doing it with a CNC.
A lot of effort goes in, in order to produce copies, nothing wrong with that, it's a talent in itself.
But it's not handmade, the same as a Maton isn't handmade.

I can't see the honesty in churning out heaps parts that look the same, and that really haven't had any human creativity that wasn't copied from somewhere else and then calling the finish product handmade.

Of course if you had spent the time, effort and dollars to learn the software and set up a CNC you would be very defensive when someone comments that the items you've made are copies. But thats what they are!

Copies are fine, but the customer should be made aware which parts are not handmade (Copies).
As someone pointed out earlier most customers would care, but they still should be told, I think it's an ethical thing.

[simso]

The issue is,

No matter what anyone said's, you want to say your guitars are hand made and others are not. If that's what's needed for you to sell your guitars then go for it.

It's not a persons job to "disclose as you point out" anything to a customer, customer wants a guitar made, if 50 percent of the guitar or more is made via cnc, so what it's still hand made by that person.

I accept guitars are all made via different methods, I assess guitars by the end product not by how they got there.

Cnc is just a tool, said it before will say it again, a router in a persons hands is still just a tool.

In regards to maton, you may be thinking of Cole Clark guitars, but they still do a heck of a Lot of hand shaping fitting fabricating and painting, far from they make there guitars from cnc

Steve

[Nick]

I can't see the honesty in churning out heaps parts that look the same, and that really haven't had any human creativity that wasn't copied from somewhere else and then calling the finish product handmade.

I would consider that as a case of 'originality' more than an argument against what constitutes "handmade". Thousands of handbuilt guitars use the generic 'Martin' headstock shape (which was a copy originally anyway!), the guitars have been handmade by hundreds of first time builders but just aren't original in their design.

Of course if you had spent the time, effort and dollars to learn the software and set up a CNC you would be very defensive when someone comments that the items you've made are copies. But thats what they are!

You could turn that around and say that somebody who had spent years learning to sharpen plane blades and chisels and hand planed, sanded and filed wood into shape could be defensive as to what is defined as handmade!

If a person designed a completely new bridge shape for a one off guitar and CNC machined it (hardly 'time' effective I know, but to some time is not a consideration) it can hardly be called a copy, as many have said, the CNC is just another tool to achieve an end result. If a person cut a block of Rosewood out using a coping saw and sanded and shaped it to be a direct replacement for a worn out bridge on a guitar, even though it's all been done by hand, isn't that a copy of the original ? (again, your argument uses 'copies' which is more a case of originality rather than a definition of handmade)
Granted, CNC is a tool that was primarily designed by a production industry to churn out multiple items all exactly the same but don't have to be used as such and chances are the bridge would still need sanding with fine paper once it's come off the machine. I thickness sand my tops, back and sides rather than hand plane, can I not hang the label "Handmade" on my guitars now?


It's a very grey and subjective area and the argument can be shaped to suit either side, I think our grandchildren will still be arguing this one when they are our age!

[demonx]

I list my guitars as being handmade with the assistance of CNC technology.

The CNC does not do anything to completion, I have to hand finish everything that comes off it. EVERYTHING.

As others have said, it's just a router. So if you own a router and templates... you can figure out where I'm going with this.

[Graham Long]

Very true Alan, but if you're using a router, you, your mind and your hands are performing the tool path operations, they haven't been entrusted to a third party. You may have designed the tool path, but those done by the CNC are copies.

I think your disclosure statement is a the way to go. If a Luthier builds instruments with the aid of a CNC he or she needs to declare it very openly as you have done.
Cheers
Graham

[Ormsby Guitars]

The only people who complain about CNCs are those that dont have one

From a customers ultimate perspective: Who cares if a guitar is handmade or not. Isnt the quality of the finished product the ONLY thing?

(we have a foot in each camp: "cnc production" churning out 1000 guitars this year via Korea, a new USA line which will be both, and entirely handmade guitars made in Australia bar our control plates and fret slots).

For the record, as a time comparison on CNC versus hand work for our import line in a mass production environment (eg: 7000 guitars a month total production for the factory).... 11% of all time spent on the guitar is via CNC. The rest is by hand. Thats a cnc neck, fretboard, body, etc... everything. When compared to a full prototype which they build with zero CNC, they take 3.5 hours longer per instrument on average.

[kiwigeo]

The only people who complain about CNCs are those that don't have one

Um.....I don't see anybody complaining about CNC. I do see a bunch of intelligent people having an enlightening discussion about what constitutes a "handmade" instrument.

[Ormsby Guitars]

The only people who complain about CNCs are those that don't have one

Um.....I don't see anybody complaining about CNC. I do see a bunch of intelligent people having an enlightening discussion about what constitutes a "handmade" instrument.

We are having a discussion about what constitutes handmade. And we have people discussing what is generally NOT handmade, CNC. And we have discussions about how much needs to be handmade, to be called that, and we have people who have experience with both. Then, we have people posting that those that use CNC should declare that, as if it makes any difference.

You love to pull my posts apart, don't you? It was a throw away comment, that once again you need to quote and point out. I even put a smiley face at the end, just to make sure you saw it. Here's another one << smiley face

[routout]

Every thing I make is hand made I have a number of hand planes ,hand chisels ,hand sanding blocks ,hand drill, hand scribe ,hand measuring stick,hand cnc, I love my hand cnc she works away while I do other things we get on just fine and she makes some really accurate jigs as well.

[kiwigeo]

You love to pull my posts apart, don't you? It was a throw away comment, that once again you need to quote and point out. I even put a smiley face at the end, just to make sure you saw it. Here's another one << smiley face

Perth weather getting to you??

[kiwigeo]

the true purist - hand made is with a rock used to carve the bark of a tree and the guts from an animal to string it up with, no tools used, but really what type of an instrument would that be

That would be a lute..

[Allen]

This discussion is so completely ridiculous as to be laughable.

I saw the same thing a decade ago over on the MIMF with some bitching about people using drum sanders and routers rather than hand planes, scrapers and hand cutting the rebates for bindings and purflings. Then calling them hand made.

If you follow this logic down the rabbit hole, then if you have a fence on your bandsaw, or table saw, use a template or guide to route to, or God forbid, a fret slot template, are you still hand made.

After all, isn't part of the charm of a hand built guitar the hit or miss intonation of a hand cut fret board with nothing more to guide you than a pencil line?

I'm far too busy trying to fill commisions to worry about what to label my work, and clients aren't in the slightest concerned either.

[seeaxe]

I can't see the honesty in churning out heaps parts that look the same, and that really haven't had any human creativity that wasn't copied from somewhere else and then calling the finish product handmade.

Of course if you had spent the time, effort and dollars to learn the software and set up a CNC you would be very defensive when someone comments that the items you've made are copies. But thats what they .

What a load of bollocks.

People using CNC on their guitars are dishonest? Really? This forum seems to have got a lot more liberal these days.

I suggest Graham goes to Perry or Allan's or Allen's workshops, spend some time there helping them finish their guitars, then see if he still has the same view. Or actually post a picture of a guitar entirely made by a CNC machine that is labelled hand made.

And saying he isn't complaining is bollocks too. Of course he is.

[slowlearner]

After all, isn't part of the charm of a hand built guitar the hit or miss intonation of a hand cut fret board with nothing more to guide you than a pencil line?

Are you saying all my basses are out of tune?

But seriously. If you use CNC to smash out 1000 identical copies of something, then yes, they're copies. If you use CNC like I use my router templates, then no, they're not copies. It's about consistency and accuracy. I'm guessing most of the guys who use CNC here are not building identical guitars. Every one is using different timber, features, etc, etc. Like others have said, once it's machined it still needs "hand" sanding, "hand" painting and "hand" assembling.

Next we'll be being told we can't use CAD to draw up out instrument plans.

P.s. 1000 identical copies are fine too. Electric guitars were always consumer items.

[Graham Long]

I don't think a visit to a CNC machine will change my opinion of what constitutes a copy or an original. But rather just reinforce it. CNC machines are very useful tools, great for what they have been designed, making copies.

This discussion isn't a witch hunt on CNC users, but just asking the questions, what's an original and what's a copy.
Where on the evolutionary time line between 'hand tools' and computer operated machines does an article cease to be worthy of the term 'Hand Made'.

Cheers

[Steve.Toscano]

What if the cnc machine was hand made??

[Nick]

I don't think a visit to a CNC machine will change my opinion of what constitutes a copy or an original. But rather just reinforce it. CNC machines are very useful tools, great for what they have been designed, making copies.

This discussion isn't a witch hunt on CNC users, but just asking the questions, what's an original and what's a copy.
Where on the evolutionary time line between 'hand tools' and computer operated machines does an article cease to be worthy of the term 'Hand Made'.

Cheers

I return to my rather rambling post and say you are confusing the term "handmade" with "copy" and originality, i.e. Mass production, which is what CNC does do best but is not it's sole use, I use CNC as part of my work as an engineer, everything I make on it is a one off, unique article simply because it's my design, designed for a very specific purpose and not available from any other supplier. I could have made the thing (and would of in the past because that's what I was trained to do) 'by hand' using conventional milling but would have taken me at least four times longer (even with modeling and programming time added to it) to produce because what the CNC does in one go would have involved multiple set-ups on a conventional mill.
I could work 7 days a week with nothing more than a Rip saw, hand plane, paring chisel, file, sand paper and work by candlelight and still turn out what could be termed 'copies' of an object because they all replicate an original object but would quite rightly be able to hang a "handmade" label on each and every one.

Allen's post sums it up really, customers may ask how he does certain things on his marvelous Ukes and he may explain how he cut it on his CNC router, but not one of them I bet, would then complain that he hasn't made each one with his own fair hand, they don't grizzle it's not 100% handmade, they accept that they have bought a lovely instrument both in looks and tone and can appreciate it for that.
I think in this technological age most people would expect a 'handmade' article to include some form of mechanical input, you indeed could truly build a guitar totally by hand, have an output of 2-3 guitars a year and expect the customer to pay upwards of $20,000 per guitar (because of the amount of hours you've poured into it) but would they?

[jeffhigh]

I think that the problem is that the term "Hand Made" is seen as by some as implying some additional intrinsic worth.

I have seen quite a few Handmade guitars with less than stellar workmanship.
One in particular, by a highly regarded overseas luthier, besides some cosmetic issues, had a 7th fret that was 2.5mm out of position.

In the end the cnc is simply a cutting tool to carve the wood to the shape you determine

As the luthier you still have to chose the wood and the orientation etc

I don't have a CNC for pretty much the same reasons as Old Picker.

[lamanoditrento]

OED defines hand made as follow:

Handmade n. from Old English Hond “hand; side; power, control, possession from Proto-Germanic *khunputer numnduz Kontrolic and Made adj. from Old English macod “made” past participle of “shaped from a tree using a rock or ones own teeth”

Anyhoo, the discussion reminds me of the guy who tried to make a toaster and his dilemma about how to make something from scratch and what "compromises" he made in pursuit of the idea

https://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_thwait ... anguage=en

[kiwigeo]

What if the cnc machine was hand made??

Irrelevant as the CNC machine when in operation is controlled by a computer not a human hand.

[kiwigeo]

Handmade versus CNC-made. I think I prefer to think of large run factory production line made by workers with little understanding of the workings of the guitar versus individual or small run instruments made by an individual or individuals highly skilled in building high quality instruments.

[Deems Davis]

What if the cnc machine was hand made??

Irrelevant as the CNC machine when in operation is controlled by a computer not a human hand.

The program that controls the cnc was created by a Brain that transmitted electrical pulses to a HAND that typed the instructions to control the CNC.

This is all very fun but also pointless. It illustrates what my wife refers to as the Male Disease!

[peter.coombe]

Oh my goodness. I have seen this argument on just every forum concerned with Lutherie. CNC is just a sophisticated tool. You need to programme the damn thing, it doesn't have any intelligence on it's own. You use your fingers to type in the commands so you control the tool, the difference being it remembers the commands and can repeat the commands accurately as many times as you tell it to repeat. Why do some of us use CNC? One reason is to improve accuracy and repeatability. The other reason is to be able to do some things that are very difficult or impossible to do by hand. Some use CNC because they can no longer do certain tasks because of injury or advancing age or to avoid repetitive types of injury. Bashing on a chisel or bending over for long periods of time takes a toll on the old bod. Usually CNC does not save time in a small shop, although it can save time as the number of parts machined at a time increases to bigger numbers. What CNC does not do is to take account of the enormous amount of variation in physical properties of wood. It will cut a part precisely the same dimensions over and over and the end result will be parts with very different physical properties. Sometimes that does not matter, but often it does matter a lot. That is where the handmade bit comes in. The CNC'ed part is just a rough start to the final product. The final product is a product of CNC and hand work and I have no problem calling that "hand made". In the USA, in the mandolin world this argument has been settled. Just about every small mandolin maker uses CNC. The USA does have the advantage in that small CNC machines are cheap and readily available.

I don't have a working CNC system, but I do have one that has been sitting in the workshop unassembled and not working for more time than I am prepared to admit. I just have not had the time to put it together and get it working. CNC requires a significant investment in time before you start to reap the benefits and those pesky customers want their mandolins yesterday.