Alternative timbers and the american influence

[Mat]

G'day,

The reason for my post is that I was recently talking to a fellow timber miller and he was commenting that he thinks Australia has the best timber around. While this comes from a non-tonal perspective it had me thinking. I thought back to a guitar builder I sold some timber to and on his webpage/instagram he had a lot of Australian timbers featuring on his electric guitars. Spotted gum necks, iron bark and red gum laminated necks, red gum bodies and so on. Pretty much a mix of many Australia different eucalyptus's for necks and bodies. While he still used traditional timbers for the fret boards.

It had me thinking about the timbers we typically see in electric guitars (even acoustics). Obviously america has the market stitched up in terms of big name brands as they started the whole mass produced thing and so to keep costs down they used timbers that were available to them or close (brazil). So then the bench mark for tone is set by the yanks. Furthermore, they control the mental psyche of marketing, ie. "Ash is the only timber you should use on a tele paired with a birdseye maple fret board otherwise it sounds like poo" statements.

So long story short, asides from marketing how come people still don't take risks on Australian timbers, not builders but consumers. Is it just because Australian builders haven't marketed timbers well enough over the years that we, as builders, just return to what will sell guitars quicker. Or is there a genuine reason?

(most of my statements are coming from an electric guitar background)

Would love to hear your responses,

Matt

[Nick]

I think you are right to an extent, the American's have been building electrics for a lot longer so history is on their side for a start and a lot of what we call 'iconic' guitarists have been slinging them for years so that image is a powerful tool to aspiring guitarists the world over. As you say though, that doesn't discount other timbers from being tonally superior or equal, it's an up hill slog but as builders it's our job to change that attitude by building beautiful guitars out of local timbers that makes the next Vai, Satriani e.t.c, lift it off the wall and play it and then realise "Hey this plays and sounds great! I'm going to hit the olds up for the money and get one." Marketing is getting smarter too, I've seen quite a few music video's with Cole Clarks being in shot (even though they are what they are) so I believe it is slowly changing. Who know's, in ten years then Queensland Maple may be used by one of those major manufacturers for bodies, Bob Taylor (I know he peddles acoustic guitars, not electric but the mind set is the same and one the 'biggies' will have to switch to at some stage) is already looking at alternative timbers mainly because the usual timbers are becoming rarer simply because the U.S market has been swallowing up the nice black Ebonies e.t.c to meet demand.
I'm just getting involved with a guy that it setting up a bass guitar factory, his main target market he wants to aim at will eventually be the States and Europe but he'll be marketing the basses as being made from all Pacific region timbers, 'standard' timbers such as Maple e.t.c will be only offered as custom items. He knows it will be an uphill battle but he's giving them a few points of difference so it's not just a generic bass guitar, one of those differences he believes, will be the looks/timbers used.

[Mat]

Thanks Nick for you reply. I do see a slow change, I guess 10-20 years ago no one would really venture outside the common timbers. I see progress with blackwood used and so forth so I understand it's not all lost. I was thinking it was Brady and his snare drum that took the Snare market by storm and he is using desert acacias. Theres a bit of a bench mark there when it comes to music so maybe we just need to find an electric combo that smashed the tone ball for 6.

[jeffhigh]

Besides the influence of the American usage, there are also issues with

-Availability of seasoned, crack free, Australian native species in thicker dimensions and suitable widths for solid bodies
-density of a lot of the common timbers is excessive for comfort in a solid body and red cedar is just a bit too soft.

QLD Maple ticks all the boxes for bodies and Maton used sassafras at one stage

[Cloverfield]

Is there a vaible aussie alternative to Mahogany?

[dotbot]

Is there a vaible aussie alternative to Mahogany?

I was just looking into this yesterday. If you consider QLD maple viable in terms of availability, it comes close in terms of structural properties to Honduran Mahogany. FWIW you can compare the numbers at the wood-database:

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-ide ... -mahogany/
http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-ide ... and-maple/

[kiwigeo]

Is there a vaible aussie alternative to Mahogany?

I was just looking into this yesterday. If you consider QLD maple viable in terms of availability, it comes close in terms of structural properties to Honduran Mahogany. FWIW you can compare the numbers at the wood-database:

Queensland Maple the go-to neck wood in my workshop. Fijian Mahogany would come a close second.

[Cloverfield]

Interesting. Do you have any photos of your builds with Queensland Maple?

Is there a vaible aussie alternative to Mahogany?

I was just looking into this yesterday. If you consider QLD maple viable in terms of availability, it comes close in terms of structural properties to Honduran Mahogany. FWIW you can compare the numbers at the wood-database:

Queensland Maple the go-to neck wood in my workshop. Fijian Mahogany would come a close second.

[Cloverfield]

Also, given that Qld Maple is close to mahog, is there an aussie species similar to big leaf or hard rock maple?

[J.F. Custom]

A few things to mention here.

Yes, certainly customer demand and expectation plays its part in what gets used to build a custom guitar. On the factory side of things, Maton and Cole Clark have been using and promoting Australian species for a long while. Having been involved in the industry in one way or another for 20 odd years, I can certainly say attitudes have and continue to change, but it is a fairly slow evolution. It is also a bit field specific - that is to say, some areas of luthiery are more steadfast/conservative in their traditions and are far more reluctant to branch out than other instrument families; classical and violin families come to mind. But even those are breaking down slowly, just more slowly than ukulele or steel string fraternities for example.

Australian timbers have been used for probably longer than you imagine - but not a huge range of them. On the supply side, there are a few factors involved, some of which have been touched on above. Others include more pragmatic reasons such as market demand - Australia's total population and relative isolation means a very small pool of luthiers to market to. Then reduce that number again for those willing to "experiment" with alternatives... The bigger market lies overseas where they do have other options, so you are competing and to them, it would be a risk. On top of this, our country is very large geographically, with a highly variable climate and species/timber varies dramatically across those zones creating logistical difficulties with respect to commercially viable supply.

On that note, we face more issues. Many species have been over-logged in decades past, to the point of rarity or controlled availability only. Particularly the rainforest species of mid weight - what I generally refer to as furniture grade. Tasmania has been pulped and locked up, NSW and QLD have fed fine furniture since settlement and much more has been cleared and burned for farming land. So some species, such as King Billy or Huon Pine are simply harder to come by and more expensive than their European or American counterparts in Spruce. Red Cedar and Rose Mahogany for example are simply not common any more and other species were never common enough to source and mill from the start.

Then there is the timber resources themselves. Arid Zone species such as Gidgee, Mulga, Boonaree etc have not been considered commercially viable. Hence, supply has never been continuous or widespread. This is due to the nature of the resource - the trees are small and often full of flaws. What is harvested is very difficult to process and harsh on equipment. Recovery is therefore very low, meaning the resulting timber, for the effort, is expensive. Compare that to very large trees like (true) Mahogany or Indian Rosewood! Other resources such as Eucalypts broadly, are very often full of resin canal, or prone to movement and splitting etc. That is not to say all of them are btw. Of course, we luthiers are also a fussy bunch, preferring air dried stock that is quarter sawn, select grade material and oh yeah, that is also figured if possible!

The truth is, timber millers at the end of the day are working to make money - as you would know. Not much said above is an incentive to do just that. Traditional business models are all about quantities, both incoming and outgoing, and ease of conversion to make commercial viability.

Now all that said, it is my belief there are a vast number of species in Australia that are certainly well suited to instrument construction, that have rarely been used, let alone heard of. They differ in what specifically they are suited to, your design and construction techniques and how you personally work around potential issues - ie, heavier timbers can be chambered for a lighter solid body. I suggest you check out my website (Australian Guitar Tonewood - link below) for a start, as this is something I am trying to address in my own small way. Will it work in the long run? Well, I hope so. But it certainly can't be approached in the same manner as timber milling in general. Nothing we do is about quantity per se, but selecting individual specimens as they are sourced, then processing them specifically with this industry and use in mind. We hope to make available more species than have been offered for the purpose before, all in one place. We have a good selection now, but it will be added to over time. Tim Spittle has also been doing an admirable job over in Western Australia for a number of years. There are in fact, too many luthiers to mention that have been using and thereby promoting Australian timbers for years. But we are still small in number, so of course what we see and hear of being used is often ex USA or Europe, via websites and books etc. I think there are a lot of Australian luthiers using Australian timbers.

Finally to some other comments/questions -

Queensland Maple is the obvious Mahogany alternative, as mentioned. Red Cedar and Rose Mahogany are possibilities, but their specific data deviates a bit. Here is a Queensland Maple neck in use, alongside Blackwood, Gidgee and Silver Ash -

@Cloverfield - similar to Big Leaf or Rock Maple in which respect? Density, hardness, stability, colour, figure etc. A few Eucalypts can be fairly similar in some respects as can other species.

Sorry for the long winded post, but hopefully some food for thought!

Cheers,

Jeremy.

[Ormsby Guitars]

Id say 50% of all guitars we make have Tasmanian Blackwood, either for the body or neck.

For tops, other than figured blackwoods, there is little to choose from if we want something fancy and eye catching. Maybe figured Queensland Maple.

The issue is for us:
1. Lack of suppliers
2. Lack of range
3. Less expensive options available
4. More "bling" available worldwide
5. Less ability to colour and stain Aussie timbers (blue stain over backwood?!?!?)

[demonx]

I think it's all covered above, but one thing that's been overlooked is price.

If a local timber is three or four times more expensive than an imported timber, then you REALLY have to want to use the local one to spend the extra dollars.

I understand the whole business aspect of why the local is more expensive, however, when a customer is speccing a guitar, if they get a timber they've heard of for "X" of dollars and a timber they've never heard of which is more money out of their pocket, in the end it's their descision. For example, a Wandoo or Gidgee board costs me three times what a Ebony board does once post and everything is accounted for (figures might have changed since the dollar dropped but I'm still working on dollar to dollar stocks), which do you think the customer is going to choose from African Ebony or Gidgee?

Also, if I'm stocking up buying the year or so aheads timber supplies, it's usually the imported timbers I'll lead to. Maple and mahogany. A while ago I bought a generous supply of Tasmanian Blackwood neck blanks, yet I've not been able to steer anyone towards them as maple necks are trending, something I've not done much of in the past, so I've got Blackwood coming out of my butt, not to mention the pallet of Vic Blackwood I bought from Curly, which is still up in the 20% moisture area, so won't be usable for a long time.

If I build guitars as stock though as opposed to orders (which doesn't happen that often), a lot of the time Aussie timbers will creep into the mix. However, if it's a oiled finish (which for me is trending at the moment over painted finished), a maple neck feels a LOT better in hand than a Qld maple or Blackwood neck. So the Aussie timbers are also not always better option.

[kiwigeo]

Interesting. Do you have any photos of your builds with Queensland Maple?

Queensland Maple necks for Parlour and Classical builds currently under way. The classical neck has a thin wedge glued in between the neck and fretboard in order to achieve the positive neck rake required on a classical.

[Mat]

I just want to thank everyone for their input on this topic. There is a lot of information to digest and how it will relate to me in the coming years. I'm evolving my design ideas and concepts constantly and all this information makes me think deeper again!
I love Australian timbers and hope that they'll be sustainable into the future.