Pitting on the body wood?

[RJrules64]

Hi all,

I don't pretend to be a luthier, but I was hoping that you people would be able to answer my question! Mods - If that's not allowed feel free to take down this post.
I am about to buy my first decent guitar, a Cole Clark Fl2e -BB. However it is marked as store soiled for $1800, with a note that there are some marks on the back of the guitar.

I looked for the marks and all i can find are some (6 or 7) *tiny* pits on the back of the body, that look like someone stabbed it a few times with a black ball point pen. (I doubt that's what actually happened though!)
There doesn't seem to be any signs of cracking, but perhaps a small amount of warping (about 2cm^2 on the bottom right). The warping is barely visible though so it might just be a trick of the light!

I played the guitar and honestly, it's one of the best sounding guitars I've ever played, including the super expensive ones in the shop. It felt really smooth to play as well which was great.
I almost bought it right there on the spot, but I decided that I needed to come back and play it one more time on a different day before I decide.

In the time between my first visit and the time I plan to return to the shop, I realised that maybe that pitting on the back of the guitar could affect it's durability!? Could these tiny marks turn into something worse over time?

Thanks heaps for your time and knowledge
Joel

[jeffhigh]

Hi Joel and welcome.
I'm afraid you may not find too much enthusiasm here for Cole Clark Guitars.
However it does not sound like the damage would have any long term or structural consequences.
If you really like the guitar, $1800 is not a great price for a damaged guitar, try offering much less

[needsmorecowbel]

There was an eye opening discussion about trench bracing a while ago on the forums some of it quite 'negative' in terms of the durability of the design and the difficulty of future repairs. As quite a lot of the guys on the forum do guitar repairs it provides an interesting insight into what makes/ models of guitars have common issues from workbench to workbench:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5528

At the end of the day everyone has an opinion...

[Allen]

Cole Clark.....Decent Guitar......?

Offer much much less.

Note.....this is the much edited version of my response.

[RJrules64]

Why do people here not like Cole Clark Guitars?

I know many well respected musos that love the sound and can't get enough.. My local music store is the largest distributor of them in Australia.
I have done a lot of sound engineering in my time so I know what a good guitar sounds like... and this particular one sounds fantastic!

Is it mostly a luthier thing? Are they built in a really unique way that makes it hard to repair or something? (From reading linked thread)
Or do you guys just not like any guitars that aren't hand built in a garage

[Bob Connor]

You really should get in touch with one of the builders on this forum who lives near you and play one of their guitars.

And then compare it again with the Cole Clark.

If you are a sound engineer you will probably have a lot of experience with acoustic guitars like Matons or Cole Clarks that are relying on the pick up for much of their sound.

If you are after a guitar that will sound good through a PA go ahead and buy the Cole Clark.

If you are after a guitar that sounds good recorded through a Neumann U47, get one of the guys on the forum to build you one.

Regards

[needsmorecowbel]

I linked that thread because quite a few of the people commenting on that thread repair guitars for a living. I know if I was spending $1800 on something I'd want to know of any potential pitfalls in design/ build quality/ repairability...but I'm no expert...

For that price you are just shy of having someone make you a custom guitar.

Stu

[Nick]

Are they built in a really unique way that makes it hard to repair or something? (From reading linked thread)

Nothing "unique" about the way any acoustic guitar is made, it's just that some company's focus is more towards units out the door rather than complete quality so their build process cuts some corners in order to speed up construction.

Or do you guys just not like any guitars that aren't hand built in a garage

We don't build in anything luxurious as a garage, we're strictly 'shed' builders here!
If you love the sound of this guitar and are happy to fork out your hard earned dollars on it then I say go for it, it's your cash. There are some dog breeds that have inherent genetic flaws and well known health issues but that still doesn't stop people paying good money for the pups and loving them to death. Just means they have to fork out more in vets bills further down the track, but if they've done their homework, they're expecting that anyway.
As for the 'pits' on the back, do they look like a finish issue (fish eyes or poor pore filling of the grain) or do they look like they've been 'pressed' in? Perhaps by a belt buckle of a customer or something? If it's a finish problem, then it left the factory like that & I'd be expecting to pay a lot less than the discount they're currently offering, it's effectively a 'second'.
Also are you able to take the guitar home on 'apro'? shops aren't always the best place to hear an acoustic guitar's true sound, the main showroom has other extrenuous noises, background music, a kid hitting the set of D.W's in the corner, the showman with all his mates around playing "Eruption" on the latest P.R.S. Even the shops with 'listening rooms' are or can be acoustically dead. Best to play the guitar in the environment you intend to use it in, be it your lounge or bedroom at home or in a studio.

[jeffhigh]

I'd have to disagree with Kiwigeo, they are built in a unique manner.
If you have had the misfortune to see the Lego Movie, it's like lego assembled with glue.

Plus a Spanish style neck joint (uncommon on steel string guitars)which cannot be disassembled to rectify neck angle problems.
And an aluminium bar(face brace sensor) glued to a trench in the soundboard which can and does come loose.
Soundwise, the heavy underbridge pickup means they are never going to be great acoustically.

There is no automatic prejudice against factory built guitars here, many are held in high regard, but not Cole Clark.

[Nick]

I'd have to disagree with Kiwigeo, they are built in a unique manner.

Apologies Jeff (I take it you were meaning my comment and not Martin's), you've had the misfortune to work on one or two where I haven't so my comment was out of ignorance of this particular brand.

If you have had the misfortune to see the Lego Movie, it's like lego assembled with glue.

Quote of the week, you've just made me do the coffee spit thing

[jeffhigh]

Sorry Nick, got confused by the sheep.

[peter.coombe]

Each to his own I guess, but if you ever need to repair the guitar later on down the track, not too many of us will touch it. I send Cole Clark owners away and tell them to send it back to the manufacturer.

[simso]

I looked for the marks and all i can find are some (6 or 7) *tiny* pits on the back of the body, that look like someone stabbed it a few times with a black ball point pen. (I doubt that's what actually happened though!)

One of the small issues with the cole clarke is the the type of sealer used, once penetrated, it can flake the sealer and coatings off with ease. So make sure the surface area around the pin holes is solid.

Having had to replace a top on one of these once, I really do not like the construction process, they start the instrument by laying down a top then fit a neck and sides and then close the box up, most guitars are made as a box to start with and then they fit the neck. Unfortunatley there design makes it almost impossible to replace a top (almost )

Steve

[simso]

Is it mostly a luthier thing? Are they built in a really unique way that makes it hard to repair or something? (From reading linked thread)
Or do you guys just not like any guitars that aren't hand built in a garage

Nope its typical of any guitar that is made on an assembly line, they do there best, but keeping costs down is the issue, so things like cnc machined backs and trenches for braces are done for speed of construction not for sound.

I was considering starting an acoustic guitar factory here in perth, and start selling our own line in Australia, but the costs and profit margin are so low when trying to compete with imports, especially on an un-established brand name. We investigated ways like cole clarke has of speeding the assembly line up to try and reduce costs, its hard....

Steve

[Strings]

just to let some people know, cause it looks like their information is a bit dated....
Cole Clark don't use the brace sensor and to my knowledge haven't for about five years (give or take)

[ozwood]

Sorry Nick, got confused by the sheep.

[jeffhigh]

just to let some people know, cause it looks like their information is a bit dated....
Cole Clark don't use the brace sensor and to my knowledge haven't for about five years (give or take)

Well if that is correct it is good, but CC don't exactly announce that they have changed. They still talk about a face sensor which may be different to the Face brace sensor.

[simso]

just to let some people know, cause it looks like their information is a bit dated....
Cole Clark don't use the brace sensor and to my knowledge haven't for about five years (give or take)

Curious where you get that info from, I do warranty repairs for cole clarke, and last new guitar we repaired had a brace sensor inside ??, and that was only a couple months ago

Steve

[Strings]

by brace sensor i was referring to that great big hunk of metal that ran the length of the sound board. now its a smaller sensor atached to a brace somewhere
i can look into it some more if you would like

[MattW]

I just checked some pricing via Google, the retail on on that model seems to be around 1800 anyway, if you wanted it potentially damaged, or as a factory second, or a shop demo guitar you should expect some decent level of discount?

[kiwigeo]

Is it mostly a luthier thing? Are they built in a really unique way that makes it hard to repair or something? (From reading linked thread) Or do you guys just not like any guitars that aren't hand built in a garage

I'll take the bait....

I guess most luthiers know more about what constitutes a well constructed and voiced guitar than a lot of musicians and also music shop staff. I make a habit of spending my idle time poking around music shops checking out the big name brand guitars on sale and I've got to say what I see inside some of these instruments can be an eye opener....eg rough as guts bracing with big blobs of glue oozing out where they meet with linings...on one line of guitars a bridge with front of same cut away under the strings (a split bridge is a matter of when not if)..and the list goes on.

When a luthier builds a guitar there's always a chance the instrument will come back for repairs/adjustment at some stage so it's smart to build an instrument with this in mind.....eg little things like positioning bolt on neck bolt holes in the neck block so that you can get an allen key in without banging against and damaging the upper bout transverse brace. Factory built guitars usually end up with a luthier for repairs rather than going back to the factory.

Guitars hand built in a garage? A lot the members here are achieving in a garage what big name companies can't achieve in a multi million dollar purpose built facility (=factory)

[kiwigeo]

I'd have to disagree with Kiwigeo, they are built in a unique manner.
If you have had the misfortune to see the Lego Movie, it's like lego assembled with glue.

???????

Um...which post are you referring to Jeff? You seem to have a serious problem with sheep.....a wannabe Kiwi?

[jeffhigh]

Nah just can't tell them apart

[Nick]

Nah just can't tell them apart

Bloody typical! Just because we all sport the same curly hairdo you think we all look the same.

[kiwigeo]

Nah just can't tell them apart

Bloody typical! Just because we all sport the same curly hairdo you think we all look the same.

A sheep holds a perm quite nicely....and a nice blue rinse is also an option.

imagesPTEAUHVU.jpg (7.7 KiB) Viewed 23027 times