Alternatives to nitro lacquer

[Mark G]

Hello there all,

I've been using nitrocellulose lacquer to finish my guitars for many years now-many years equals about 3-4 per year for the last decade or so. I've used nitro almost exclusively and really loved the results even though I only now feel like I've mastered the process and the desired deep mirror gloss. While all this is good every time I use it I find myself wishing for something less toxic. It smells horrible and no matter the protection I wear I end up with headaches. This cant be good for me so maybe after this lot runs out I'm convinced I need to try something else. I have used tru-oil and while it's low toxicity is good it just doesn't have the deep gloss I look for in most of my instruments. I will use french polish on my next classical guitar to see how that goes but would like to hear more of what others find works well yet still achieves the deep gloss that nitro gives. Cheers,

[jeffhigh]

Would Acrylic lacquer be less irritating?
I have used it on a few, just not quite as hard as nitro,

[demonx]

Let's go back to the headaches. As if you're using "protection" then you shouldn't be breathing in anything to give you headaches

How often do you change the canisters in your breathing mask? If you're only spraying 4 guitars a year then you really should have a fresh canister each time. You spray.

In a business environment, most businesses that don't have air fed helmets insist those canisters be replaced every half hour. I personally spray a handful guitars with one, however it's also stored in an airtight container as per directions.

How have you been storing yours?

Are you wearing nitrile gloves and covering up all other skin so there's no contact? It's recommended sensitive people also wear a face mask as overspray can enter through the eyes etc quite easily. I don't do this, but if I'm spraying a lot, a car for example, I do notice my eyes dry up.

Are you wearing your mask before, during and after spraying, as in, put the mask on before you even open a container and don't take it off until after you've cleaned and locked up?

Do you avoid the spray area until the fumes have completely cleared (overnight if its an enclosed environment?)

If you are particular about all my points above there should be no issue.

These may sound like insulting "beginner" question, but as I started out saying, if you're getting headaches, you're missing something.

[Mark G]

Thanks for the input. I am not at all insulted by your advice. It's this sort of stuff that you miss out / don't get or perhaps just a bit slow on the uptake. I haven't changed the canisters for a while. I don't take them out and store them in an airtight container - here I think we've found my biggest issue. I do where the mask when opening the tins etc. and leave it on before, during and after spraying. I don't go back to the spray area until all fumes have dispersed. I don't wear gloves and often don't where long sleeved clothes etc...I really am starting to sound a bit dumb aren't I. Off to the shops tomorrow to make safe before continuing the current job.

Lesson learnt - new canisters, stored and replaced regularly. Wear gloves and cover arms, legs etc.

BTW - Searls guitars have beautiful finishes. Thankyou very much for chiming in and looking after my health and safety. It's extremely helpful.

[simso]

Nitro is forgiving stuff, but IMO far outdated, it impressions toi easy, reacts to guitar stands etc.

Acrylic lacquer is good, excellent finish and relative safe for your health, poly urethane is tough but the hardener is a bit hazardous, UV is the ultimate clean and healthy but to expensive currently for the average person to gear up in.

Steve

[demonx]

You don't need to remove the canisters, just store the whole mask in a container like an ice cream container or similar.

You don't need to change the dust filter in the mask that often, just blow them out gently with an airhose. However if you're only painting once every few months, you'll possibly need to change your canister more often than you think, being that as soon as you break the air tight seal they are sold in, they have a shirt life span.

At the paint shop you'll be able to buy nitrile gloves. They look the same as latex gloves, but they are not. I use automotive 2k and if I use a latex glove it'll melt off my hand, the nitrile ones won't.

My finishes are a work in progress. I've got a system down that i like, but its too time consuming so I'm always experimenting trying different products, sometimes I win sometimes I loose.

Simso is right, UV most likely is the way of the future and I'd really like to go that way, but I need to get other systems up and running in my workshop before I invest in UV. At this stage it'll be a couple years away. Hopefully its a lot cheaper by then!

[simso]

Most manufacturers are switching over, maton have/prs have/taylor have, its the way of the future,

At the moment the curing side is obscenely priced (lighting), the paint itself is relatively priced okay, pretty sure its about 70 dollars a litre, but its still only sourceable from overseas and that is where the costs lies in the shipping component, last 4 litres I paid 500 just in the shipping (hazardous ship).

Hopefully with maton doing there finishes in the last year in UV, it will provide a local distributor within australia to gear up. Id hazard a guess that cole clark will start using it as well within the next couple of years, its a really really tough finish with super thin coverage

[demonx]

How do you approach grain filling with the UV products and is there any sink back? The quick look I've had in the past read like there is a clear sealer/filler spray on product which is sanded back and then a clear topcoat?

Grain fill I find to be the biggest time consuming task in my current finishing process

[simso]

With Uv, grain filling takes about a minute or two, you squeege a gel onto the surface and then you cure it, once its cured its sealed and solid, you sand it with 200 grit sand paper to then allow all the top coats to adhere to it.

The issue with Uv in my opinion is that it is a mechanical bond only, not chemical, so it needs to be keyed into any following coats with heavy grit sand paper, no smoother than 600,

[demonx]

Is this gel wiped onto raw timber, or over a sealer?

[simso]

Over raw timber, it is the sealer

[demonx]

Now you're just showing off!

Seriously though, it all sounds really good. I'd love to swap over to UV, but I've currently got all my eggs going towards the CNC basket and won't be able to invest in UV until that is paying for itself.

How are the products like to sand, cut and polish?

[simso]

Extremely good, it's harder than poly urethane (car paint) and is a lot thinner

But the lighting system for curing will set you back 2k plus, and then there are learning curves, if you wave the light to slow it will boil the oils in the wood and make them pop through the surface, f you wave it too quick and it won't set hard,

A uv cabinet which you can program to run a curing cycle, you place guitar in and run program of 60 seconds and it's fully exposed and fully cured will set you back 10k, if I was manufacturing guitars for a living, I would buy a cabinet

I believe Taylor have gone to a hybrid uv now, it's cured via lght, but will also cure lightly via time as well

[demonx]

Only 10k for a cabinet?

The place I emailed quoted me about US5k for a wand setup and about US$100k for a cabinet setup

[weslewis]

Have you considered water based lacquers??

[dshaker]

There are UV fluorescent bulbs that are sold for the purposes of sterilization and for hardening of fingernail polish and cost US$10-60. I don't know if they produce the right wavelengths for the guitar lacquer, but if a cabinet from the lacquer supplier is $10,000 to $100,000, I think I would investigate the bulbs first.

[dshaker]

On further investigation, I find there are even companies making UV-emitting LEDs specifically for UV finish curing.

[Nick]

Just getting away from the UV finish stuff Mark. I use Mirotone 3220 pre cat laquer. Not quite as volatile as Nitro IMHO, I've had less 'head' issues with it (headaches e.t.c) and the last guitar I did had a finish you could swim in it was that deep (even though I do say so myself ). It's similar in application to Nitro so no steep learning curve for you.

[Allen]

I've looked at various other options for finishes, but have kept using Mirotone 3220 for the time being because of ease of use, and the very high gloss that is quite easy to achieve.

The cost of setting up, product availability and other related issues with UV cured polyester are only something that a volume producer should look at. If you aren't pushing out at the very least 10 instruments a month then it's simply not feasible.

[Mark G]

Thanks folks,
I have considered mirotone and even gave them a call before I bought my last batch of nitro but being unfamiliar with what pre-catalysed lacquer was I just gave it a miss. I think my head is a bit stuck in the vintage romance of nitro lacquer but also have used some regular acryllic on some electrics and found I just prefered the way nitro sanded. Have learnt a lot in the last weeks about where to change my spraying habits and am achieving the best results I've ever had on the latest build. Just changing sandpaper grits and habits with grain fill and levelling etc. I'll likely give the Mirotone stuff a try when the nitro runs out.

[DarwinStrings]

Both pro paint shops up here have told me pre-cat is nitro with a bit of plastic for added flexibility.

Jim