Diamond Sharpening Stones

[ozziebluesman]

Hi there to you all,

I need to improve my chisel and plane blade sharpening system. I have the Veritas honing guide and it's a beauty but oil stone I am using is not.

I think the diamond stones might be the go and they don't need to be flattened regularily.

What do you all use?

Thank you

Cheers

Alan

[kiwigeo]

Diamond stone for rough working a blade and then I go to Japanese water stones. I finish off with a leather strop. The diamond stone is also used to flatten the water stones.

[Lillian]

I use the same system as Martin. It works a threat.

[kiwigeo]

I use the same system as Martin. It works a threat.

Threat????

[liam_fnq]

Alan, I used to dread the sharpening process. Nothing ever went right.

Get yourself a 1000 and a 6000 grit water stone from Terry Gordon:
http://www.hntgordon.com.au/waterstones.htm
Make up a little holder out of scrap.

Use wet n dry on glass to get your primary bevels then flip the turny dial on the veritas guide and work the secondary bevel on the water stones.

You make a bit of a mess so I do it on a melimine bench top, away from where I do my building.

[charangohabsburg]

I use the same system as Martin. It works a threat.

Threat????

Didn't you know this sharpening procedure is dangerous, thus threatening?

[kiwigeo]

I use the same system as Martin. It works a threat.

Threat????

Didn't you know this sharpening procedure is dangerous, thus threatening?

Youre very sharp my Swiss friend

[charangohabsburg]

Caution: this sharpening stone may threaten your life ...



... especially during the process of trying to get it flat!

BTW +1 on the process described by Martin.
An yes, it's a bit (not much) of a mess. It is one of the last luthierie related things I still do in the kitchen.

[J.F. Custom]

Hi Alan.

Diamond Stones, Water Stones and Oil Stones are quite different beasts.

Oil stones are common, but not great and they are usually not very fine grit. Most fine woodworkers that I know will use Water Stones as mentioned by others, and possibly Diamond as well. We won't complicate the issue and go into Arkansas stones, Tormek Slow Wet grinders, Diamond pastes etc...

So Diamond stones are great because (the good ones - read "more expensive") are flat; don't wear out or "dish"; cut quickly; use water to lubricate and can be used with any steel including Tungsten (router bits). On the other hand, the reason they are often used in conjunction with water stones as opposed to in isolation, is because of their grit limitations. So Coarse grit in a diamond is about #300; Fine grit is #600 and Extra Fine is #1200. Compare that to water stones which go up to about #12000 grit ! As a reference, oils stones are mostly in the same range as diamond. Diamond stones excel in removing a lot of material with haste. This is perfect for when you need to re-grind a bevel; restore an old tool; remove a chip etc. You would be there forever attempting this work on a Water Stone.

Also, cheap Chinese diamond stones are ok, but, note the differences - they are often not flat. The individual particles will not have as tight a size tolerance - so a #600 grit stone may in fact have particles that are 520 - 680. Note these numbers are illustrations, not factual. The bonding to the plate may not be as good and they may wear down as a result - I've seen many that have. The actual plate coverage of diamond crystals may be less, so the effective cutting area is reduced. In other words, they are cheap for a reason! But that said, they are useful to have around for various jobs.

Water Stones however generally provide the highest quality edge due to their fine grits available. For most people, this equates to a final edge from a #4000 or 6000 grit stone, or then stropped as Martin suggests. It must be said that #8000 and up is vastly overkill for most. However, being fine they cut more slowly. If your tool is in poor shape before attempting sharpening, expect to be there a long time if you only have water stones available. They are also soft in material meaning they will require occasional flattening. You also would probably need two grits such as #1200 and #6000 on two stones, or a double sided dual grit stone. You need to step through grits to achieve your final edge, although fortunately, not quite as much as with sandpaper when finishing an instrument! But you could not, for example, go from a #300 grit diamond to a #6000 grit water stone.

There is also a relationship between the quality of your tool and the edge you will achieve. In simple terms, if you have good quality steel tools, they will be far more sharp when finished off #6000 grit, than if you only took them to #1200 grit. Conversely, if your tools are poor quality, the higher in grit you go, won't actually make the tool any sharper because the steel can not hold that edge. Under a microscope, the steel on the edge actually begins to break up and crumble. It could be argued then that high quality tools would therefore benefit from going to #10000+ as they will be sharper than #6000, but while this is technically true, #6000 is mirror or razor sharp enough by far for most. Time matters too!

It is expensive to set this type of system up first time, but then, these will last you many years of service. You will also appreciate just what a truly sharp tool does to assist your work! Otherwise if budget dictates otherwise, choose wisely to begin and build up to this sort of setup over time.

Sorry for the large reply Alan but hopefully it helps you make an informed decision!

Cheers,

Jeremy.

[auscab]

Ha Ha ,
I’m going to complicate thing a little Jeremy. Oil stones are the best. a little hard to find , you have to search hard, so way easier to buy modern water, finer grits and all that. But if you like to hunt a little you could have two or three good oil stones in two weeks with ebay and on line tool dealers. I think the finer grit thing is not so important if you use good stropping technique as well . Each to their own though. Peace Man

My stones are oil stones, of the two every day ones that I use most one is a man made with two sides I think it’s a Norton the other is possibly a natural stone could be an Arkansas, its hard and fine and a blade finished on that I can shave with , I can go to my strop after that, or if I’m feeling like the job needs an extra fine edge I go to my Black Arkansas that’s the hardest finest stone I have ever used and it’s pretty amazing , I can only just sense that it is removing steel it’s so fine , with a bit of work a chisel looks polished . flip a blade so that it’s grinding an unimportant corner an you can write your name with a fine trail of steel left behind. All my stones were bought second hand except my first one which was given to me. Most have been flattened on a piece of glass with silicon carbide grit .

A chisel or plane blade goes from grinding wheel to medium oil stone bevel down holding the angle by hand and I do a few circles till I get a thin burr right across the blade, most of my plane blades are ground with a curve except for jointing blades so I hold the angle and sweep in a arc across the stone bevel down . Once I have that first thin burr, the blade goes to the fine stone still with bevel down . I like to use a count down method from here , ten small circles across the stone bevel down , then for the first time flip the blade on to the flat side on the fine stone and ten circles.
Flip back to the bevel and do nine, flip back to flat and do nine
8 and 8
7 and 7
down to one each side or .5
then strop in palm of hand. You can be a bit quicker and go ten and ten
to 7 and 7
4 an 4
2
1
Plane blades I may have to lift a little on the flat side to get the burr going back the other way because it’s not so important that the flat side is dead flat . chisels are kept dead flat.

I will admit though that I am against the use of guides for sharpening, I was going to have a rant on it but deleted that bit.

I will try to load some pics of my stones , I think there pretty sexy.

[charangohabsburg]

BTW +1 on the process described by Martin.

Except that I don't strop it on leather. I use a coarse stone (ca. 120 grit or a (less) coarse dimaond stone) then a 800, 1200, and a finally 6000. One gets the job done with fewer stones but I get things done quicker by using narrower stepped grits, for simple resharpening often only the finest two (1200 and 6000).

When I want it really shiny I follow up with a 10000 grit waterstone, but it doesn't get much sharper with this one, and not for more than a few shavings. I feel the 10000 grit stone was my most unnecessary investment in luthierie tools ever: nice to have but perfectly expendable. 6000 is just fine, more than 8000 doesn't make sense to me.

I used to flatten my stones with a flattening stone and silicon carbide powder ...until I got a decent diamond stone.

Never ever get oil on your water stones!

Stay away from cheap diamond stones, they are not only not flat but also wear out within minutes.

The rest has been said by Jeremy.

[J.F. Custom]

Ha Ha , I’m going to complicate thing a little Jeremy. Oil stones are the best.

HOW DARE YOU ??! It took me ages to write that reply

So I should clarify, (aside from disagreeing ) when speaking of "oil stones" I am referring to the generic man made stones sold through bunnings, home hardware etc. These occupy for me, the same territory as a diamond stone so if given a choice, I would go for diamond due to its 'flatness', ultimate 'longevity' and 'versatility'.

It is true that Arkansas stones are oil stones too in the sense that some form of oil is used as the cutting lubricant. But I said I wasn't going to complicate matters by adding in those too! Arkansas stones are, or can be, beautiful stones. The best quality is harder to find as the quarries are not producing flawless material in such quantity these days, but they are good and last forever - more or less. They usually do not have a specific stated grit, being a natural quarried rock, but the best are very fine indeed, as Rob mentions.

Rob is evidently an experienced woodworker, so a cautionary note to Alan who may not have the experience with sharpening. Take care if you consider the bench grinder approach. Aside from removing a lot of material quickly, without due care, these are very prone to overheating your tools steel. Even a so called cool cutting, white aluminium oxide grinding stone can and will overheat your tool if you don't know what you are doing. Overheating your tool will effect its temper and ability to hold an edge.

Jeremy.

[simso]

Im spoilt,

I use a diamond grinding wheel, resharpens router bits, milling machine cutting bits, screwdrivers drills chisels etc, and no water or coolant required

Super spoilt

[auscab]

The top pic are the two I use most , the upper one being the fine one. Could be a man made one . not sure ? the lower one Man made.

The next picture shows two green stones.
The top one is a Charnley forest. The Charnley Forest was one of two types of stones available to the English woodworker before the year 1889 according to Walter Rose in his fantastic book “ The Village Carpenter” first published in 1887 . Walter also talks of a Turkey stone being the other stone that was then sought after, Brown to white in colour, and considered better than the Charnley Forest . In 1889 he writes the Washita came, and was “Hailed with delight by all woodworkers, who straight away discarded their Charnley Forests for ever” Must be how I got to buy one .
The other Green spotted one could also be a Charnley Forest , but I don’t know for sure.

The last picture is a White Arkansas and a Black Arkansas, you can see the fine swirls I was doing the other day on the Black showing it off to some friends.

With Grinding on the bench Grinder ,like Jeremy says take care.
I have some second hand diamond teeth that have been brazed to a bolt head which I dress the stone with before each grind session, if the wheel looks like it needs it.
One of the best tools ever pointed out to me . I never used to dress my wheel. The difference is huge.

[Kim]

10mm sheet glass with various grits wet&dry abrasive glued on with spray contact adhesive for me...perfect! When ur shaving in the reflection of ur chisels and planes and its time to change paper, just pull them off, wipe down the glass with Shellite, and go again...just remember to only spray the paper 'or' the glass with contact cause if you spray them both you will find it difficult to peel the paper off again.

Cheers

Kim

[Trevor Gore]

Ignore everything above (ha ha!).

You have the right honing guide if it's the Mk II. I use a 12" blue DMT diamond "stone" (the super-flat kind) for getting to the first burr, and the same size 1200 green stone for getting rid of the burr. Use low-odour kero as the lubricant. About 5-10 strokes on the blue and 10-20 on the green, flipping between bevel and back and you can easily split hairs and will have a reflection just short of mirror-like. Decrease the pressure as you finish up on the green stone. Don't strop. That's as sharp as you need for anything short of brain surgery. If you're taking more than a minute to get an edge on a tool you're doing it wrong, but I can't tell you how you're going wrong. Honing at 35 degrees gives an edge that lasts a lot longer than a 30 degree edge. The DMTs are zero maintenance and I've been using mine for more than 10 years and I'd say they are good for at least another 10.

And, yes, I've tried just about everything above and more besides.

The DMTs were about $200 each(!), but I reckon they are better value than any of the other systems I tried.

[J.F. Custom]

Ignore everything above (ha ha!).

You have the right honing guide if it's the Mk II. I use a 12" blue DMT diamond "stone" (the super-flat kind) for getting to the first burr, and the same size 1200 green stone for getting rid of the burr. Use low-odour kero as the lubricant. About 5-10 strokes on the blue and 10-20 on the green, flipping between bevel and back and you can easily split hairs and will have a reflection just short of mirror-like. Decrease the pressure as you finish up on the green stone. Don't strop. That's as sharp as you need for anything short of brain surgery. If you're taking more than a minute to get an edge on a tool you're doing it wrong, but I can't tell you how you're going wrong. Honing at 35 degrees gives an edge that lasts a lot longer than a 30 degree edge. The DMTs are zero maintenance and I've been using mine for more than 10 years and I'd say they are good for at least another 10.

And, yes, I've tried just about everything above and more besides.

The DMTs were about $200 each(!), but I reckon they are better value than any of the other systems I tried.

Sharpening on #300 ? Finishing on #1200 grit ???

Rough as guts Trev... I've seen better edges on Neanderthal tools in the museum

At least we now understand why Trevors chisels are half the length they ought to be...

Alan : a translation - DMT = Very Good Quality Diamond Stone. US made and worth the extra expense.

And jesting aside, a good point here as to why I suggest anything beyond #6000 grit being academic. While it is true that #6000 will be a finer edge than #1200, is it worth the time and effort? We know Trevor would suggest not.

I can't comment anymore as although I have all the equipment and have tried most methods...

I have a Tormek now. It does the job.

Mind you, I still do many tools by hand - just depends on what I'm sharpening.

Jeremy.

[Lillian]

I use the same system as Martin. It works a threat.

Threat????

Correctly spelled, just wrong application. Freudian slip there I guess. And/or not multitasking too well.

Lots of ways to skin that particular cat as you can see. Todd Stock did a surprisingly decent video on how to sharpen a chisel using the diamond and water stone combo. It isn't the best videography, but it shows you all you really need to see. Its a three part series. Part one. Part two. And Part three.

[ozziebluesman]

Some great discussion here! Thank you all very much.

I will admit I am not an experienced sharpener. I have a 1/2" and 3/4" Marples paring chisel and a 3/16" paring length chisel with no name but good old steel. My planes are HNT Gordon Trying and Block plane with an old Stanley Block plane I bought off eBay from England some years back. It's a beauty from the sixties.

I was considering these from Stew Mac: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_su ... &xsr=13838
Has any one had any experience with this set?
Cheers
Alan

[Lillian]

I haven't used Stew Mac version. But if you are looking to go that route, have a look at these.

[kiwigeo]

Caution: this sharpening stone may threaten your life ...



... especially during the process of trying to get it flat!

Um..that rock on the back of the truck looks like a big chunk of granite......ok for a flattening plate but not much good for sharpening blades on

[DarwinStrings]

G'day Alan, judging by the "Dia-sharp" trade mark on the side of those Stewy Mac Diamond stones I would say they are DMT stones without DMT stamped on the side just for Stewy. They are top notch gear but you may want to consider that they are the small ones and buying the larger ones from DMT(cheaper on Ebay than direct) will be better suited. I bought a DMT "Dia-sharp" Extra coarse(about 120 grit) that is 300mm x 70mm, not only will it quickly cut a crappy old blade back into shape but it is great at flattening your water stones. For a rough old blade I go from the "extra coarse" then to the "extra fine" DMT then flatten my 6000 water on the DMT and put the chisel across the 6000 water.

Jim

Life is good when you are amongst the wood

[Kim]

To deck frets I use an precision ground 18" quartz sanding beam fitted with a psa backed abrasive strip. Same deal as the glass, when the abrasive has worn it gets torn off and the surface of the beam is cleaned with shellite before a new strip is added. I bought the quartz on ebay a few years back so I am not sure if the vendor is still around. I do have a 10" diamond plate (Duosharp?...its yellow, has a grit each side and was bloody exie..) that I used for sharpening until I went back to glass and then I used it for decking frets a few times but found it too lite weight for my liking. That's why I ended up buying the quartz beam.

If anyone like the sound of the idea but can't find a quartz beam, an alternative is to find yourself an old abused No5 or No6 Stanley, even one that has had a braze repair will be fine. Retract the blade well clear of the sole and lock the frog firmly in place as neither will be used again. Once the plane is loaded and permanent tension is set, deck the sole on a flat surface with abrasive paper. A jointer top or TS top is good for this especially if overlaid with a sheet of glass first. Once the sole of the plane is dead flat you can then glue on a strip of 6 or 10mm phenolic and then deck the surface of that on the jointer to receive psa abrasive strips as required. (If you can find phenolic (electrical trade supplies is a good place to look and you will be amazed at what else you can use off cuts for) you can always use 10mm glass but will need to be more careful when handling ....in a pinch I guess some 16mm melamine would work to)

If the guitar neck is levelled correctly and well supported, the weight of this tool is ideal as no downward pressure is required. You only need let the tool do the work resulting in each stroke remaining very even throughout the travel...and the fact it has a handle is a nice touch as well.

Cheers

Kim

[J.F. Custom]

Some great discussion here! Thank you all very much.

I will admit I am not an experienced sharpener. I have a 1/2" and 3/4" Marples paring chisel and a 3/16" paring length chisel with no name but good old steel. My planes are HNT Gordon Trying and Block plane with an old Stanley Block plane I bought off eBay from England some years back. It's a beauty from the sixties.

I was considering these from Stew Mac: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_su ... &xsr=13838
Has any one had any experience with this set?
Cheers
Alan

Jims right Alan. Those "fret levellers" Stew Mac sell are DMT Dia-Sharp units. High quality but -

1 - Those are the small 6" x 2" units. Not too good for plane irons etc.

2 - You can buy them from Carba-Tec locally for $35 each.

http://www.carbatec.com.au/dmt-diasharp ... ones_c7350

Better to spend a bit more for the larger ones and just buy one or two grits.

Also note, I think Stew Mac has a typo - the green coded "extra fine" is #1200 grit, not #1800 as they claim - To the best of my knowledge.

Jeremy.

[Lillian]

Jeremy is right. Sorry about the extraneous BS, but I stole it off sharpening supplies website.

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