Martin 73 00-21 Top timber?

[auscab]

I have this 73 Martin 00-21 and I have been thinking for
some time that it may be a cedar top, can any one tell by
these pictures if it is cedar ? or what type of spruce?
And if Cedar would it be W/R cedar that has faded ?
It has a strong Pine / resin type smell on the inside.
The smell is like what you get sitting in a sauna.

[jeffhigh]

I have never heard of a cedar topped Martin. in that era I would expect it to be sitka spruce.
It may have spanish cedar linings (neither really cedar or spanish) if it has a strong smell .

[GregL]

Hi Rob,

Can you look at the underside of the top - maybe with a little mirror? You might get a better idea what the top wood is?
I'm guessing that Western Red cedar has been used on some Martin guitars (sorry Jeffhigh). I have seen several Western Red cedar topped Martins mentioned on the internet, and I saw a Western Red cedar top when on a Martin guitar factory tour in 2005, though I can't tell what your top wood is.

Thanks,
GregL.

[jeffhigh]

Looks like sitka to me, most of the colour will be from the aging of the nitrocellulose lacquer anyhow.WRC would be very dark by now
I had a '76 D28 that looked like that.
Other than HPL or mahogany tops there was the occasional Koa but it is none of those.

[jeffhigh]

Apparently there was a limited run of cedar topped HD-28's which are not highly regarded.
I guess a custom order could have cedar, but really it does not look like it.

[Mark McLean]

Definitely looks like sitka. And there aren't many cedar topped Martins out there. Cedar tops, at the age of nearly 40, are usually very suntanned to deep brown, and also very dinged (it is so soft). Cool guitar!

[Paul B]

Never heard of WRC getting lighter with age. Darker, yes.

[Mark McLean]

And I forgot to mention - that's a very nice sideboard also!

[Kim]

Definitely looks like sitka. And there aren't many cedar topped Martins out there. Cedar tops, at the age of nearly 40, are usually very suntanned to deep brown, and also very dinged (it is so soft). Cool guitar!

+1

[Bruce McC]

Hi Rob

Try http://www.martinguitars.com
There is a catalogue of their guitars on this site.

[Bruce McC]

Sorry try http://www.martinguitar.com
leave out the "s"

[simso]

Yep, nicely aged spruce.

Now the sideboard on the other hand....Mmm what could I make with that wood

[auscab]

That would be one pile of expensive bad tone wood.

Ok , Sitka Spruce it is .
WRC gets darker with age ,I didn’t know that ,Glad I asked the question.

The growth rings in the top are about 1mm apart and any Sitka I have bought is not that close , so it’s a fine grained example of Sitka that Martin would have access to I would suppose ?

The smell ??
The linings are the typical neat Mahogany. Braces look like spruce.
I might see if I can get a good picture of the inside under the top with my three fold mirror and put it up.
Just to be sure. And for interests sake.

The saddle has been shaved a bit by the look of it to lower the action .It’s a nice little guitar that sounds good, I would like to have heard it’s sound when the saddle was at the right height. I rested a straight edge along the fret board down to the bridge following Frank fords instructions and the straight edge sits below the bridge by approximately 3 to 4 mm. So it will need a neck re set one day. Id rather build some like it than pull this apart , but if it stops working ??

[Mark McLean]

Rob
That saddle is pretty low. There is not muck break angle left on the 3rd and 4th strings. You could cut some string ramps to improve the bearing pressure of those strings on the saddle. It might deliver a bit more volume and punch. How is the action?

A neck reset is like a valve grind in an old engine, or prostate surgery in an ageing luthier (OK, not you Lillian). It is an almost inevitable requirement for continuing usefulness, and we should not shy away from it. That Martin is a great looking instrument and it should have many more years of joyful music left in it. But, your straightedge experiment is demonstrating a significant neck alignment problem. If the action is getting high and it is no longer a joy to play (as it should be), bite the bullet. You will smile every time you pick it up after it has the surgery.

The sauna smell? Could be the spruce. But we all know cedar when we smell it don't we? Has it ever had those cedar ball things (moth repellers) stored in the case? You sure the kerfings aren't cedar?

cheers
Mark

[Lillian]

Rob
That saddle is pretty low. There is not muck break angle left on the 3rd and 4th strings. You could cut some string ramps to improve the bearing pressure of those strings on the saddle. It might deliver a bit more volume and punch. How is the action?

A neck reset is like a valve grind in an old engine, or prostate surgery in an ageing luthier (OK, not you Lillian). It is an almost inevitable requirement for continuing usefulness, and we should not shy away from it. That Martin is a great looking instrument and it should have many more years of joyful music left in it. But, your straightedge experiment is demonstrating a significant neck alignment problem. If the action is getting high and it is no longer a joy to play (as it should be), bite the bullet. You will smile every time you pick it up after it has the surgery.

The sauna smell? Could be the spruce. But we all know cedar when we smell it don't we? Has it ever had those cedar ball things (moth repellers) stored in the case? You sure the kerfings aren't cedar?

cheers
Mark

[J.F. Custom]

I might see if I can get a good picture of the inside under the top with my three fold mirror and put it up.
Just to be sure. And for interests sake.

On that note, another option to consider. You could use a high power handheld light. If you can rig up a light that you can put inside, you can turn it on, with the lights off (at night) and take a photo as this will give you a blueprint/xray of the bracing used in that particular instrument.

Just a thought... for interests sake.

Jeremy.

[auscab]

That would be interesting Jeremy, I’ve seen it done and yes I’d like to do it, I took my tripod in to do it months back but never got any further.

What do I do once I’m looking at the picture of the bracing silhouette on my screen though ? How do I transfer that to paper? Me and my printer aren’t talking to each other at the moment! I refuse to after I found out I had bought a machine that would refuse to scan with one empty cartridge of ink in it.
I don’t think I have the patience to figure out how to scale it up and be sticking sections together. If that’s possible.

I will ring Officeworks and see if they can scale up a picture to correct size off a memory card?

[charangohabsburg]

What do I do once I’m looking at the picture of the bracing silhouette on my screen though ? How do I transfer that to paper?

One possibility is that you skip the screen and camera:
Don't use the hottest light bulb you can find (5 Watt cold light is plenty enough), this will give you more time before you damage the varnish of the back... Lay out some paper on the top and mark the end positions of the braces (in the dark, with the light in the guitar turned on, of course). It helps if you draw the outline of the guitar to the paper before starting the dark room action. After that, connect the marked brace ends on the paper. Done. No printer needed.

If you want to hone your computer skills you can use the photograph as a reference image for a CAD drawing. Something like this here.

[auscab]

12 Volt led might be good ? bright with no heat .

[charangohabsburg]

Today LED lights are bright. If you have one try it. If you don't have one, instead of buying one just to see if it is enough or not you also can do what I have done some years ago (and is what I still use):



The wire keeps the bulb away from the wood which even with a weak, not so hot bulb is a good thing if using it for more than only a couple of minutes, but also means you can damage the soundhole borders if not handling it carefully when getting it in and out of the instrument.

I also use it for reasonable lighting when using the webcam for doing internal surgery.

[auscab]

Thanks Markus, and Jeremy, you have inspired me to get out the gear and wire it up .That tip with the light inside and the paper on top is going to work perfectly.I tried that first then took pictures.

[charangohabsburg]

Glad it works for you.
Good to see you recognised one has to cover the holes for a good contrast. Excellent photographs!

I forgot to mention that it seems that guitar tops made of Western Red Cedar and Sequoia (and maybe very few other conifers) are not translucent. Just as a side note.

[J.F. Custom]

Cool.

Nice work Rob.

Jeremy.

[auscab]

And it looks nothing like the colour of any cedar I have on the inside.
I think the smell I got may have been from moth balls or something like that. It was stronger when I first got it, 1 year ago.
And I think the smell is stronger when it is first pulled from its case after sitting in there for long periods. It's been out of its case quite a bit over the last three days and yesterday I was not getting the smell at all
Also I didn't realize Sitka could be so close with it's annular growth rings,I used to work with a fair bit of hemlock and that came in fine and wide rings come to think of it seen the same with Oregon .
lesson learned ,thanks.

[Corky Long]

More concurrence that it's most likely Sitka. I'm not sure when they stopped using Adirondack - probably in the 50s?

Just one more comment on the appearance of Sitka = I've got some Sitka tops that are a good bit tighter (in terms of growth rings) than those. Really need a strong magnifying glass to measure them. Sitka can grow everywhere from Californi all the way to Alaska - I'd imagine that in the further northern reaches, the growth rings get very, very tight. (some of the nicest I have are from Alaska) - not sure where Martin was sourcing their tops at that point.