King Billy Pine

[peter.coombe]

I would be interested in what the guitar makers think of King Billy as a top wood in guitars. I have only come across 2 SS guitars with King Billy tops and did not like either of them. Has anyone had success with King Billy in guitars?

I have used a lot of King Billy Pine in my mandolins. It works really well in mandolins and violins, particularly with Blackwood backs. I have tried it with Myrtle, Qld Maple and Jarrah, as well as Blackwood. All sound nice, but I do prefer the sound I get with Blackwood. Myrtle makes beautiful sounding instruments, but they are quiet with poor headroom. I have found that the sound varies quite a bit so that some will overlap with the Spruce topped mandolins, but occasionally one comes out sounding stunning, and blows away all my Spruce mandolins. I have long suspected this may be because of the very high variability in weight and stiffness of King Billy and Blackwood. The stunning sounding instruments all seem to have moderately light weight Blackwood backs and stiffer King Billy tops. Unfortunately much of the fiddleback Blackwood is a bit on the heavy side, but customers all want figured Blackwood, so is difficult to maintain the looks as well as the sound. Added to this is King Billy is now very hard to get, so you can't be too fussy about the quality.

Anyway, here are some pictures of my latest. This is something I have been wanting to try for a long time i.e. pick the best quality King Billy and use a plain piece of Blackwood that is light and stiff for the back. I managed to score a beautiful clean and perfectly 1/4 sawn piece of King Billy at the Canberra WWW show a few years ago and used that. It works. This is an amazing sounding mandolin that has blown away some of my best sounding Spruce mandolins. It really shows what can be done with Aussie native timbers. Not only that but I really like the colours of the wood combination. Woods are King Billy top and linings, Blackwood back and sides, Qld Walnut neck, Ivorywood bindings, Lancewood tuning knobs and fingerboard, Myrtle fingerboard, Qld Maple head and tailblock. About the only wood that is not an Aussie native is the Ebony headstock overlay. I was going to make a sound clip, but I am crippled with a torn muscle at the moment (done on the tennis court, must be getting too old for that), and just to get to the workshop is a massive effort. There are some soundclips of a similar mandolin on my web site. Got to http://petercoombe.com/goldfinch.html

Peter

[kiwigeo]

Exquisite work as always Peter. The tennis injury sounds serious..take it easy for a bit mate.

[Nick]

I seem to recall a few members using King Billy Peter & seem to think our own dear leader, Bob, was one of them so I'm sure you'll get a few useful replies. I have some in my stash also so will be interested in the replies you get.

[jeffhigh]

I quite like King Billy, But....

-the one sample I tested had about half the youngs modulus of the engleman I have been using
-it is soft
-it is hard to get good guitar tops without knots, runout or other defects

If the guitars you have tried did not have the top thickness increased appropriately for the lower youngs modulus, then I am not surprised that you were underwhelmed.

So far I have only used it on a weissenborn.
Paul (Ozwood"s) KBP/Blackwood OM that I tried was a great sounding guitar.

[christian]

Hi Peter,

Certainly a beautifully made instrument !!! I don't know anything about king billy so can't add on that front.
but perhaps you have nailed its optimum dimension and shape in these instruments and have been able to get the very best out of it.
I know in my own findings with NZ natives, some work better on smaller instruments some better on bigger, then throw in the bracing and in combination with the back and sides. It's a great puzzle.
look forward to hearing what those in the know add.

Cheers,

Christian.

[Kamusur]

Mmm now that looks pretty damned good.


Steve

[ozwood]

Hi Peter,

I made a(IMHO)great sounding King Billy Topped Guitar , I told that it was impossible to get a good sound using KB , well that sounded like a challenge to me , I made it using Trevors Falcate method, which alllowed me to compensate for the lack of cross grain stiffness, My only regret is that I promised it for a charity Auction before it was completed , when I heard it I wondered if I could get another one done before the event , because I was so happy with the sound I wanted to keep it , I did have time to pass it around before it went , and everyone who played it loved the sound , even a classical guitarist who was up making a Guitar with Strato. anyway in my opinion, if it's a nice tight peice of KBP and you use Trevors methods , You can produce a Really nice sounding Instrument.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3301

Cheers,

[curly]

G'day all ,
I've only built the one King Billy guitar , a big old dreadnaught which was matched to high figure Cooba ( Acacia salicina ) back and sides . Given the low stiffness I kept the top out about the 3mm mark which worked a treat , the instrument is loud enough , warm and very even across it's range .
My experience of King Billy is more in milling the timber and some good times walking King Billy ground . So a bit of extra info on the tree .
Athrotaxus selaginoides is the botanical name , the genus Athrotaxus is endemic to ( that is to say only grows in ) Tasmania . Pencil Pine is the other close reliative , some guides recognise Summit Cedar as another species , others call it a hybrid of the two others . The timber is very similar ; soft , beautifully fragrant and famously stable . If anything Pencil Pine ( again a poor name , it is not a pine clearly ) , has finer growth rings than king billy as they tend to grow right up on , or above the tree line at high altitude .
One particularly fine board ( that was sold as king billy ) which come to me out of some very old stock showed 476 annual growth rings across 3 inches of growth . It is said that 2000 years old is possible in king billy , though it could well be higher .
Athrotaxus is a member of the Cupressaceae family which makes it's reliatives the Cypresses and Redwoods , both recognised tonewoods . Another very close reliative is Chilean Alerce ( Fitzroya ) which likely points to the Gondwanan link of our continents .

The trees can be scattered in mixed forest , but much more so tend to form groves . If anyone should find themselves at Cradle Mountain one of the best , most accesable groves is around any behind ( to the North ) of the historic Waldheim chalet which is itself built of split King Billy . The best trees are off the trail , you don't have to get far in . In fact you likely won't get far in , if anyone has encountered the shrub Baura , you will know what I mean . This is a stunning grove of ancient trees .

In my side business milling fancy , rare and figured timbers I have got hold of precious little good King Billy . This is unfortunate because the available resource is better than it would seem . King Billy is highly susceptable to fire , it is said that 70% of the original King Billy is gone , by far most of it to fire . It is also highly durable so many of those trees remain .
On a couple of occasions I have approched I.S.T . , the specialty timber branch of Forestry Tasmania requesting a permit to salvage burnt trees . Plenty of more knowledgable people than myself have tried the same and to the best of my knowledge have also (recently anyway ) , failed . The practice I proposed was to select perfecly straight grained trees , fell them , buck them to soundboard lengths and then split them into billets as is common for spruce . It would all be hiked out . King Billy being a low stiffness timber in any case , often gets to the point of being floppy becuace of trees with a lot of grain run out being used . That is not to say that sawn timber is any problem , it's just very difficult to gaurentee the grain orientation . The answer I got last time I requested a permit is that it would be too damaging , and too unsafe to allow someone to salvage . It is on the cards that Forestry Tas are going to open a salvage King Billy coupe , the difference being that they will go in with big yellow machines and smash a bunch of regenerating ground ( in all likelihood including yound King Billys as well .) If anyone else out there has seen just how much precious timber gets smashed by Forestry Tas behind locked gates , you will likely understand how raging mad I get over it .
I've seen some awesomely good King Billy milled by Chris Searle of Cockatoo timbers , otherwise James Anderson seems to have good billets in stock . Oh yeah , I have the odd bit as well .
Anyways , I fear this post is more a long mormon skirt than a mini . I'll leave it at that .
Pete

[ozwood]

Hi Pete ,

I love King Billy , and i know what you mean about big trees , I have some boards that are anout 150 mm wide and are dead on the 1/4 width ways , That is dead straight grain from side to side, so the Billett must have been at least 150 mm thick and stiil dead on the 1/4 the tree must have been huge .

I love the smell , the workability , the colour it's a wonderful timber .

cheers,

[peter.coombe]

Thanks to all. The reason why I asked is that I have a good stash (very good actually) of King Billy I bought around 15 years ago from Morrisons sawmill in Tassie, and much of it is plenty wide enough for guitar tops. I originally got it for mandolins when the writing was on the wall as far as availability was concerned, so we bought a whole tree, but I have not used much of it yet. It is really good clean stuff that has made a few very nice mandolins, and Gillian Alcock has made some great sounding dulcimers with it. So, I was wanting to know if it was worth cutting some of it into guitar tops. At the moment the answer seems to be in the affirmative. Keep the comments coming please.

Thanks Pete for the millers point of view.

I also love working with King Billy, but don't like the hidden knots. At times ugly hidden knots in wood that looked great from the outside have just about driven me insane. However, some years ago I wrote that King Billy was one of the finest tonewoods that grows on the planet, and I have not changed that view. You just need to make a few modifications to get the best out of it. My King Billy mandolin tops are a bit thicker and have a higher arch than the Spruce tops, and so far there have been no complaints about structural failure.

Went to the doc today and apparently I have a severed plantaris muscle in my left shin muscle. So, nothing serious, but is very painful and swollen, and will take a few weeks to get back to normal. Just hoping it will be sufficiently recovered to be able to drive to Port Fairy FF. At the moment driving the car is out (it's a manual), and I am hopping around on one leg.

Peter

[Kim]

Pete,

From discussions with Bob in the past, it would appear that smaller size instruments such as 'o' 'oo' and 'ooo' are the best prospect for KB's. I have a few KB sets in the stash and am incline to agree as it's stiffness to weight ratio does not quite match that of good spruce. That's not to say that you cannot make a good sounding 'larger guitar' with KB, but to my mind, the equation remains that the scope for responsiveness, or flexibility in use, must reduce proportionately with any reduction in that ratio because you can always make a top less stiff prior to bracing by thinning it, but you can't take it the other way.

Cheers

Kim

[Bob Connor]

I've built three guitars with King Billy tops. Two were 0-18's and one 000. I would be loath to try it on a Dreadnought.
I think the first one I built had a top thickness of 2.75 mm and I left the next two at around 3mm.

And as Kim says I think it suits smaller guitars due to it's general lack of stifness. Having said that I've got around thirty sets of it and some of it is quite stiff (pretty ugly mind you but as stiff as some spruce I have). So it doesn't pay to generalise about properties of particular species but treat each set on it's individual attributes.

To me it screams fingerstyle with a sweet top end and nicely pronounced mids. The bottom end is there but it sounds different to Spruce. Steve Kinnaird finished a 000 recently from a top that I sent him and he concurs with my thoughts.

It also opens up reasonably quickly and the sound changes quite remarkably (for the better) after around 6 months of use.

Hope the leg mends enough for Port Fairy Peter. If you are going, let me know and I'll bring down a King Billy/Blackwood 0-18 for you to have a listen to.

Regards

[peter.coombe]

It also opens up reasonably quickly and the sound changes quite remarkably (for the better) after around 6 months of use.

Yes I find that also in my mandolins but the change occurs at around 8 weeks of age, and it is quite a remarkably large change. After that they continue to improve with playing, but not by much.

Bob, I would be interested in seeng your KB guitar. We are still planning to make it to Port Fairy.

Peter

[curly]

G,day Peter ,
I had a local maker/student request some King Billy today , particularly he is after a couple of classical size sets sawn from next to each other for a comparitive build . I wasn't able to supply him contiguous sets without digging into block stacks , or selling out of my personal stash .
Hence I thought of your post .
I usually retail them at about the $100 mark , which is expensive against the alternatives but covers my costs and a little as is the norm . He can be contacted at [email protected] if that's a lead you want to persue .
All the best .
Pete

[curly]

Just thought I'd add another little anecdote on the King Billy thing .
I was handed an odd 25mm King Billy board along with a stack of other stuff by Chris at Thomas Lloyd guitars for resaw , which I do a bit of for him . I didn't pay it a whole lot of attention till I was setting the guard to rip it , when I thought , that's bloody nice stuff , better not stuff this one up . Needless to say , being King Billy it just fell through the saw .
Why I make note though is the need to assess timber piece by piece rather than only off it's data . This King Billy was easy as stiff as a lot of spruce I have handled ( just by flex testing ) . I dropped by the schoo this arvo and see that Chris had closed the soundbox on a classical using that King Billy . No mistaking it , that was a nice board . That box was making some sound .

[rocket]

I've just returned from a trip to Tassie, at Strahan i purchased some nicely quartered King Billy from Tasmanian Specialty Timbers,
two meters long , 238mm wide 60mm thick. A bit of history came with the purchase, the timber was extracted by Bern Bradshaw in the 1950's, it is said that the tree that this billet came from was killed in the 1896 bush fire and sat on the Raglan range overlooking the Franklin river for may years until these timber getters cut tracks up these impossibly steep slopes and painstakingly bring these timbers down. I haven't got the stuff in my hot little hands yet, being delivered by courier, some pics will follow when it arrives.
Cheers,,,,

Rod.

[David Aumann]

I have never used King Billy as a guitar soundboard. I have in the back of my mind that Maton originally tried it on their Australian Series guitars but soon substituted it with spruce (for reasons unknown) making them semi-Australian, I suppose.

However, after reading some of Peter's printed work, one of my earliest mandolins was King Billy/fiddleback blackwood. An oval hole A-model. I was very pleased with it but felt that over a couse of several years its tone became a little bit less crisp and more mushy. I'll admit to not knowing much way back then, and maybe I made the top a bit thin.

Unperturbed, I'm hoping to get a chance this year to build another King Billy/fiddleback blackwood mandolin but this time it'll be an F-style. I've decided to keep the top 10% thicker than spruce and see how it goes. If, or I should say when this project begins, I'll try to post some photos.

Cheers, David.

[rocket]

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Although some are underwhelmed by the topic of tonewood called King Billy Pine, some might be interested in seeing some pics of this 1100 year old specimen, nicely quartered, 60 x 240, suitable for a book matched top for arch top or mando or several flat tops. Nice colour with annular rings at about fifty per inch, looking forward to working with it.
Cheers,,,

Rod.