Kootenay Tonewood

[kiwinoz62]

Hi Everyone,

Just bought 10 sets of 3A grade soundboards from Graham, all up cost around AU$221.00 landed at my doorstep.
Of course it's traveling via slow boat but I think I can wait for it to get here.
Last time I got 2A grade soundboards off Graham & they are great, look forward to this lot arriving.

Just thought I would let the forum know the approved vendors provide a great service to us and I appreciate the even quicker response to any inquiry.
Done deal with-in an hour. . .

[kiwigeo]

Graham is indeed providing a quality product and his service is second to none.

[Kim]

Must agree,

My experience is that Graham is a legitimate 'Tonewood' vendor and not just some shonk with a bandsaw willing to saw up anything wide enough that may turn a buck. He grades his wood how its traditionally meant to be graded avoiding the dodgy 'used car' like sales tactic of presenting a flaw as a feature and up-charging to validate deception.

Its good to know there are still honest people willing to provide a quality product at a very reasonable price.

Cheers

Kim

[Dominic]

Although of the 30 AAA tops I have got from Kootenay, most have run out that shows up clearly as different colours on each side of a finished guitar. They are cheap even after shipping but perhaps slightly over graded.
Dom

[kiwigeo]

Although of the 30 AAA tops I have got from Kootenay, most have run out that shows up clearly as different colours on each side of a finished guitar. They are cheap even after shipping but perhaps slightly over graded.
Dom

Have seen only minor run out on the tops Ive used so far. If anything the tops I have are under graded.

[Bob Connor]

I've built half a dozen instruments with Kootenay Engelmann and none have displayed any runout.

[Dominic]

I suppose that just means I have been unlucky. But given these 30 tops came in 3 different lots of 10, I have either been exceedingly unlucky or it is a fair sample and people can expect AAA tops to have run-out, in general. Either way, it is only fair to share my experience with people after such glowing reviews from the mods.
Cheers
Dom

[kiwigeo]

I suppose that just means I have been unlucky. But given these 30 tops came in 3 different lots of 10, I have either been exceedingly unlucky or it is a fair sample and people can expect AAA tops to have run-out, in general. Either way, it is only fair to share my experience with people after such glowing reviews from the mods.
Cheers
Dom

Maybe you should share your experiences with Graham and give him a chance to deal with the issues you have with his wood.

I had one shipment arrive by air and many of the sets had a bit of twist in them. When I contacted Graham he immediately offered to replace the whole shipment no questions asked. I chose not to take him up on his offer and stickered the wood for a month and it was fine.

[Kim]

Although of the 30 AAA tops I have got from Kootenay, most have run out that shows up clearly as different colours on each side of a finished guitar.
Dom

I suppose that just means I have been unlucky. But given these 30 tops came in 3 different lots of 10, I have either been exceedingly unlucky or it is a fair sample and people can expect AAA tops to have run-out, in general.
Cheers
Dom

Very prolific of you Dom, 30 completed Engelmann topped guitars is a mammoth effort. You must show us more of your work in future.

One thing I must add here is that 'all' spruce trees have a tendency to grow with a twist which produces the runout we see in some top sets. Good sawyers understand that to reduce this runout, they should hand split wedges and follow the face when resawing.

Englmann spruce grows at a higher altitude than most spruces so their tendency to twist is magnified. Couple this with the smaller log sizes common to this species making it near impossible to split out a face wide enough to produce a soundboard, and you can probably understand why in lutherie Englemann spruce is so well known for having runout with any tops being completely void of the defect graded as master because they really are the exception to the rule.

As far as I am aware, with anything other than 'extreme' runout like you find in crotch wood etc, structure and tone are not a factor. So I would suggest that if the 'appearance' of runout in a top is such an issue for a builder that they do either of two things. Buy only wood sourced from species of the lower altitude spruces such as Sitka as their girth does allow for runout free wood to be split from much larger rounds, or flip match Graham's beautiful and cheap Englemann so that light refractions will be the same for both sides of the top at the same time. That is to say they will either both be a lighter colour or both a darker color dependent upon the angle they are viewed from.

With Graham's wood being so incredibly clean and cream with such fine even grain, you could never pick the difference at the glue line between book and flip matched with the eye....pity you did not mention this at Englemann topped guitar number 1 Dom and you would have avoided 29 black and white minstrels.

Cheers

Kim

[Pete Brown]

Very prolific of you Dom, 30 completed Engelmann topped guitars is a mammoth effort. You must show us more of your work in future.

An interesting and informative response Kim, but what did the sarcasm add to the discussion? And you're a moderator?

[kiwigeo]

Very prolific of you Dom, 30 completed Engelmann topped guitars is a mammoth effort. You must show us more of your work in future.

An interesting and informative response Kim, but what did the sarcasm add to the discussion? And you're a moderator?

I was actually also wondering how Dom got to see the runout in all 30 tops without at least running them through a drum sander. Ive got about 100 of Grahams top sets and any runout is very hard to see on the wood straight out of the box.

[Pete Brown]

Very prolific of you Dom, 30 completed Engelmann topped guitars is a mammoth effort. You must show us more of your work in future.

An interesting and informative response Kim, but what did the sarcasm add to the discussion? And you're a moderator?

I was actually also wondering how Dom got to see the runout in all 30 tops without at least running them through a drum sander. Ive got about 100 of Grahams top sets and any runout is very hard to see on the wood straight out of the box.

A fair comment Martin - I guess it's all about the way it's delivered..

[Kim]

Pete,

Not so much about sarcasm, more about keeping criticisms fair and validated...

Dom had implied in his post that his assessment of Graham's product was based upon 30 'finished' guitars..maybe that is the case and if so it really 'is' a mammoth effort and I really 'would' like him to show more of his work as he is a very good builder. But if the assessment of all 30 tops was in reality based upon an 'assumption' made from what had been the outcome from just a few guitars made of wood from the 30 tops ordered, then we need that fact to be made very clear in a thread such as this.

At the end of the day, you, me, and Dom, all have day jobs to pay the bills, but people like Graham make 100% of their income from supplying this craft. If we pan them in an open forum without 'all' the cards face up on the table, then we risk doing them an injustice that none of us would enjoy. What's worse is that we risk impacting their capacity to make a living and pay their bills and none of us has the right to do that unless our criticisms are based upon what we 'know' to be true rather than what we 'assume' to be true. I have had a little bit to do with wood in my time yet I still find it very difficult to detect even moderate runout in an unfinished top...hands up all those who don't..

I will also add in response to Martin who posted while I was writing, that you can sand a top until it is all dust and never get an idea of runout. You can get 'some' clue from the edge if you plane a 45 but this is not conclusive, the proof is only really seen when light refracts through a finish where it will appear darker into the grain/runout and lighter with the grain/runout.

Cheers

Kim

[charangohabsburg]

It has straight grain.
It has tight grain.
It has even colour.
It's AAA grade.
It's cheap.
It's not Master grade (not offered by this provider).

Is it really wrong to point out it has runout (obviously sometimes it doesn't have) and that there is no miracle to be found?

[Dominic]

Kim, not sure how you thought I had implied I made 30 guitars with these tops or why my genuine experiences have to be questioned. I have made 5 guitars with these tops and all show some colour change across the top suggesting run-out and I picked through the stack looking for the best tops. The rest have been cleaned up, thicknessed, weighed and labelled. And yes, I can tell a top with run-out from one that does not. I would not make such a comment without knowing what I was talking about and I can't understand why the debate has to decent into speculation about how I arrived at my conclusion. "If I thought this then such and such." I am right here and am happy to answer questions about how I came to my conclusion, there is no need to speculate that I may be making uninformed assumptions. So perhaps the first step could have been to ask how I decided most of the tops had run-out rather than start guessing and suggesting I have been lazy or overreacting.

I did say in my first post I thought the tops were still good value but a AAA grade top should have little or no run-out according to most grading methods.
So while Graham does make his living from selling tops, I also work for my money and send some to him. It works both ways. I was offering my own honest views about his tops based on my experience because others here who also work for their own money and are contemplating sending it to Graham should be able to make an informed choice based on the real experiences of builders who have used his products.

Dom

[kiwigeo]

.... I have made 5 guitars with these tops and all show some colour change across the top suggesting run-out and I picked through the stack looking for the best tops.

......I did say in my first post I thought the tops were still good value but a AAA grade top should have little or no run-out according to most grading methods.

To me the difference between "some colour change" and "little or no run-out" is academic.

The bottom line is that even though you seem happy with the tops if you had deemed them unacceptable then Graham would have replaced them without question. This is what sets Graham apart from many other tonewood suppliers and is one reason he's a preferred supplier.

[Daniel_M]

For what it is worth -and that might not be much. But I thought it was good to see another type of review of a tonewood supplier. I for one have purchased wood from a preferred supplier and in some cases the service was terrible and the product was unsuitable. Admittedly they fixed the issue but it should have never happened. In other cases the product was great and service nearly acceptable. I appreciate that I am new to the forum, but when close to $5000 in tonewood has been purchased in the last couple of months (from various suppliers), you would hope that people would be more willing to offer better product and service. My somewhat laboured point is that these reviews add balance - all facts (both positive and negative) should be given when I supplier is named -i.e. Were they given an opportunity to remedy the situation? If this information is to be useful then a ' review' needs to be balanced and transparent.

[kiwigeo]

For what it is worth -and that might not be much. But I thought it was good to see another type of review of a tonewood supplier. I for one have purchased wood from a preferred supplier and in some cases the service was terrible and the product was unsuitable. Admittedly they fixed the issue but it should have never happened. In other cases the product was great and service nearly acceptable.

These are ANZLF approved suppliers? If so then please give the mods a heads up so we are aware of the situation and if necessary we will talk to the supplier.

[Daniel_M]

Sorry mate, I was not sure of the process, but will do in the future.

[Kim]

My somewhat laboured point is that these reviews add balance - all facts (both positive and negative) should be given when I supplier is named -i.e. Were they given an opportunity to remedy the situation? If this information is to be useful then a ' review' needs to be balanced and transparent.

Daniel,

I could not agree more. That is the only point I have tried to make in this thread.....No one here has any issue with people voicing their opinion, but when that opinion is dealing with someones capacity to earn a living, its important to have ALL the facts 'clearly' presented so that people can make an 'informed' decisions rather than one based upon what is left to their imagination because a point to point criticism had been made by one member who omitted detail that would explain the discourse and reveal the reality of the situation.

As for your issues with approved vendor/vendors, we do not know the details and if the matter has been dealt with I don't see the need for anyone here to get involved now. You had an issue, it was addressed to your satisfaction, that is all we ask of our PV's, to treat our members fairly and honour the service standard that had got them on the list in the first place. Yes I do see your point that it would be better if issues did not happen at all, but the fact is that they do and not every operator can be standing over the shoulder of each and every employee at ever moment of the day to make sure all is kosher for the aussie guy...so I think we need to cut some slack here and just acknowledge that you were treated fairly in the end, if not, 'then' we need to know about it.

Although of the 30 AAA tops I have got from Kootenay, most have run out that shows up clearly as different colours on each side of a finished guitar. They are cheap even after shipping but perhaps slightly over graded.
Dom

Kim, not sure how you thought I had implied I made 30 guitars with these tops or why my genuine experiences have to be questioned.Dom

Dom, not sure how you can fail to see that your opening sentence in this thread could not be read in such a way as to leave the reader with the impression you had built 30 guitars with Graham's wood and most display runout which can bee seen as different colours under the finish? As to why I had questioned your experience Dom, that was simply because your initial post had provided so little detail that it needed to be questioned.

I have made 5 guitars with these tops and all show some colour change across the top suggesting run-out and I picked through the stack looking for the best tops. The rest have been cleaned up, thicknessed, weighed and labelled. And yes, I can tell a top with run-out from one that does not. I would not make such a comment without knowing what I was talking about and I can't understand why the debate has to decent into speculation about how I arrived at my conclusion. "If I thought this then such and such." I am right here and am happy to answer questions about how I came to my conclusion, there is no need to speculate that I may be making uninformed assumptions. So perhaps the first step could have been to ask how I decided most of the tops had run-out rather than start guessing and suggesting I have been lazy or overreacting.

A demonstration of your skill at determining runout would make a really interesting tutorial Dom. I can pick severe runout easily by eye from the run of the fuzz on the face of a rough sawn board, I can generally pick moderate runout by the alteration in the level of resistance when lightly passing the open palm of my hand along the surface of a sanded board one end to the other from one direction, then the next....but as the runout decreases in severity, so to does the information which this method provides. As mentioned, I can also identify what 'could be' a runout free top and I do this by shooting a 45 along one edge, or, if the board is wide enough to allow, splitting and edge, but that does not always tell the full story across 200mm so it is only an indicator. So yes, if you have a sure fire method of detecting runout by degree across the board I would love for you to share that with us all because that is what we are here for.

I did say in my first post I thought the tops were still good value but a AAA grade top should have little or no run-out according to most grading methods.
So while Graham does make his living from selling tops, I also work for my money and send some to him. It works both ways. I was offering my own honest views about his tops based on my experience because others here who also work for their own money and are contemplating sending it to Graham should be able to make an informed choice based on the real experiences of builders who have used his products. Dom

From Allied Lutherie:

In brief, Master grade (or AAAA) is as good as it gets, about 1 to 2 percent of soundboard material grades out as master, with cosmetics (which are based on structural integrity) and runout differentiating this grade from AAA.

http://www.alliedlutherie.com/soundboards.htm

There is lots of stuff on the net to indicate the properties of traditional grading standards, but I think most would agree that the various owners/operators of what is today know as Allied Lutherie had established that standard when an ex-employee of Martin had first set up shop and the grading system had then evolved and been spread with the growth of the tonewood retail industry as we know it today. It should also be acknowledged that of all the spruce species available, Englmann is by far the most likely to have some degree of runout for those reasons I had already explained but you chose to ignore, both in you assessment of Grahams product and your response to me.

Whether you like it or not, these are very valid points Dom. I just looked on Ebay for some of Graham's listings.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Engelmann-Sp ... 4cf55b1b0b

If you were to buy these 10 x AAA tops at his BIN price, you would be paying just $17.11 for each top pre-shipping...With a 3A grading from Graham, my experience, and that of others with probably yourself included, is that you could expect they would be in the main, very clean, even, stiff, light weight and well quartered. Yes, some if not all, being that they 'are' Englemann spruce, may display some degree of runout which would prevent them from selling as Master Grade...that's the one in one thousand stuff. So, has Graham 'really' over graded as you suggest??

Think what you may, but if none of these tops had 'any' runout, my guess is that most vendors holding very clean, even, stiff, light weight and well quartered tops would place another digit in front of the $17.11 that Graham is asking. The whole point of this response is to again ask that people please be sure 'they' understand and account for all of the realities before they criticise any vendor on an open forum AND that they take the time to provide enough detail to prevent misinterpretation of their statements once they make them because these topic hang around for a very long time and it is just not fair for anyone to damage someone's ability to earn a living just because they held an unrealistic expectation that was not met.

"Unrealistic Expectation!!!"??? Let me explain THAT this way. If anyone on this forum can indicate where we can get 3A spurce of any kind, that is very clean, even grained, stiff, light weight, well quartered 'and' has no runout, even at $50 a set pre-shipping....please speak up and let us all know....That is my point Dom, right there in a nut shell.

Cheers

Kim

[matthew]

you crack me up, you really do

[Kim]

Ditto Mat

[Daniel_M]

Yeah mate - the quality issue was sorted. I still deal with this supplier relatively regularly. I have found that the vast majority of their product to be excellent, as I mentioned the service can leave a bit to be desired sometimes. But overall I keep using this supplier - so on balance it mustn't be too bad. But certainly not worth providing any further detail or raising with the mods. But thanks again for providing guidance and making me aware of the process.

[kiwigeo]

Yeah mate - the quality issue was sorted. I still deal with this supplier relatively regularly. I have found that the vast majority of their product to be excellent, as I mentioned the service can leave a bit to be desired sometimes. But overall I keep using this supplier - so on balance it mustn't be too bad. But certainly not worth providing any further detail or raising with the mods. But thanks again for providing guidance and making me aware of the process.

Thanks for the clarification Daniel. Just to reiterate, if any members have an issue with service or product from one of our preferred suppliers and and it doesn't get sorted then please advise the mods via PM. If you think the suppliers service can improve then again please let the mods know and we can discuss this with the provider.

[liam_fnq]

Thanks for the clarification Daniel. Just to reiterate, if any members have an issue with service or product from one of our preferred suppliers and and it doesn't get sorted then please advise the mods via PM. If you think the suppliers service can improve then again please let the mods know and we can discuss this with the provider.

There's something a little bit strange about this. I don't know if I'd feel comfortable involving the admin in a transaction between myself and a vendor. Can the admin really provide leverage to a private transaction? Does the admin have a prerogative to do anything, afterall the prefered vendors aren't paying for their position. Furthermore what if the admin team then deem the customer/forum member who contacted them in the first place to be in the wrong and back the vendor. It's one of those moves that once done can't be taken back. Where's that picture of the can of worms.