Santa Cruz Guitar Statement

[J.F. Custom]

I'm wondering if anyone can enlighten me on the following comment, pulled from the Santa Cruz website. I realize a good portion of this will be 'marketing' to promote their chosen methods, but given they categorically state it is science based...


"The dovetail jointed neck allows us a considerable degree of control over the presence of the guitar. The tonal advantage of the dovetail is not a matter of opinion; it is supported by acoustic physics. The dovetail joint is a crucial element in voicing and tuning our guitars to be extremely responsive and powerful to the audience."


Has anyone seen or got links to such research that demonstrates clearly this is the case? If so, is this a reality in statistical computer analysis only, yet not measurable by common ear? What are your thoughts on this?

It seems a bold claim to me given the amount of contributable factors in shaping a guitars tone. I can accept that different neck materials, densities, stiffness, thickness, fretboards etc all have their impact or influence on tone. But I would have thought a good quality, well fitting join be it butt; mortise/tenon; bolt-on or dovetail would have had so little difference as to render it irrelevant.

Correct me if I'm mistaken please.

Jeremy.

[charangohabsburg]

Dovetailed necks only sound better if fitted at full moon and using Yak hide glue applied with a journalist's pen.

[liam_fnq]

My bullshit meter goes into overdrive when I see disputed opinions over-dressed as 'fact' without any reference to where to find the research itself.

The irony is that is was probably written by university educated people who would have had the importance of using footnotes and what not to properly reference within academic documents drummed into them by their professors.

**Disclaimer** I'm not saying it's untrue but that if you are going to make big claims you better back it up with something better than advertising buzz words.

[kiwigeo]

I like a dovetailed neck becau se I know that some poor sucker has struggled with chalk and sanding sticks for a couple of days getting the thing right.

[Kim]

I think the author has claimed a little too much artistic right, either that or he got his uncle, whose job it is to test poo samples at the local treatment plant to see if they've been cooked enough, to provide an independent 'scientific' analysis..... I have never seen or heard any evidence to support such a notion and would suggest that this is yet another deep rooted myth holding up the tree of guitar legend...and make no mistake, its a big sucker because it is fed by truckloads of pure bullshit....So much is formed by assumption, much of it by those who 'play' well winning respect for their opinion.....yet they still struggle to put a set of strings on properly because they have never built a thing in their lives.....I have come across some Martinites that will swear this dovetail neck joint nonsense is true, but they are the same misguided people who ignore all fact and insist that a cloth patch over the X brace is tonally and structurally superior to a spruce cap.....why? Because that is what o'l CF did so it 'must' be the best way.........

Cheers

Kim

[woodrat]

It seems a bold claim to me given the amount of contributable factors in shaping a guitars tone. I can accept that different neck materials, densities, stiffness, thickness, fretboards etc all have their impact or influence on tone. But I would have thought a good quality, well fitting join be it butt; mortise/tenon; bolt-on or dovetail would have had so little difference as to render it irrelevant.

Correct me if I'm mistaken please.

Jeremy.

Thats pretty much what I reckon Jeremy.

[kiwigeo]

The irony is that is was probably written by university educated people who would have had the importance of using footnotes and what not to properly reference within academic documents drummed into them by their professors.

More likely composed by salespeople trying to convince the reader that they're university educated.

[Daniel_M]

Total bs. The best factory guitar I have ever played is my bolt on neck seagull.

[charangohabsburg]

Certainly, Santa Cruz should get awarded with some of these items:

[DarwinStrings]

Is the spelling correct here, was it Cruz or Claus?

Jim

[Kim]

[Pete Brown]

it is supported by acoustic physics.

So was the Kasha bracing system.

Cheers
Pete

[Nick]

Like most here whenever I see such black & white claims like this my BS meter travels off the scale & the more I think about the neck joint the less I'm concerned about what type it is. I'm even starting to question just how much of an influence on the overall tone the neck has, let alone how it's held to the body! (Fender's tilt neck system sounds no different to one sitting snuggly in a pocket) When the guitar is in it's most useful state, i.e. being played, we are damping alot of the neck's natural resonances by wrapping a dirty great paw around the back of it & our hands make damn fine shock absorbers/dampers! Even the Classical technique which usually just employs a thumb at the back of the neck, still employs some form of 'squeeze' contact which must have some damping effect.
You can present any sort of fact applied with the right amount of "poetic license" when you are marketing it in order to generate sales. Unfortunately people with limited knowledge will swallow this stuff & argue till they are blue in the face that this is scientifically true. I would be asking them (Santa Cruz) if I was looking at one of their product, to present the proof of their claims, mind you even scientists can taylor their views depending on who's paying for their 'research'.

[J.F. Custom]

Geez, such a bunch of cynics you lot!

Well anyway, as none of you have been able to 'enlighten me' with a plethora of studies and research clearly indicating that the dovetail joint is so far superior to all and any others sonically as to justify it's other drawbacks...

I decided to write and request the "acoustic physics research" directly. This is what I said -

Hi there.

Reading through your website, I came across the following statement/claim -

"The dovetail jointed neck allows us a considerable degree of control over the presence of the guitar. The tonal advantage of the dovetail is not a matter of opinion; it is supported by acoustic physics. The dovetail joint is a crucial element in voicing and tuning our guitars to be extremely responsive and powerful to the audience."

As this is a contentious issue amongst luthiers, could you please point me to the research which substantiates your claim, specifically - "...not a matter of opinion; backed by acoustic physics."

I am very interested in reading this research and the corresponding results. Evidently you have access to such to support your statement. If it's available online, a link would be appreciated.

Thanks for your time and I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,

Jeremy.

So I will let you all know if I get a response... any at all.

Hold onto your hats - perhaps we are all about to change our thinking...

Jeremy.

[DarwinStrings]

Awwww Jeremy, I wish you would have put in a request for a pony for me too

Jim

[Puff]

And to new fwont teef for me two please

[J.F. Custom]

Just saw your reply Nick.

Asking the horse was exactly what I've done today.

I did so because there is such a legal term called "puffery" used in advertising. This would include for example a statement such as "Worlds BEST Guitars" which is OK because such a claim could never be tested/qualified in real terms.

However alluding directly to "Acoustic Physics" research that clearly indicates it is not just a matter of "opinion" is quite another I think. This is why I asked as I thought perhaps the research did exist that I was unaware of. I can't foresee how it is the case, but admit to not knowing everything. No it's true I tell you! So I thought perhaps when you 'remove' all other factors that you mention such as hand dampening, different materials etc, in an unnatural scientific computer driven analysis, removing the neck on the same guitar and changing the attachment method, it may have proven to be statistically correct. In real terms, amounting to nought but a lot of wank, but enough (barely) to make the claim.

We shall see.

Jeremy.

[kiwigeo]

To me the crux of the claim is the degree of acoustic coupling between neck and body. Shouldn't be too hard to build two identical guitars with different beck joints and measure how much energy reaches the headstock. I cant be bothered but somebody else might have the time and inclincation.

[J.F. Custom]

To me the crux of the claim is the degree of acoustic coupling between neck and body. Shouldn't be too hard to build two identical guitars with different beck joints and measure how much energy reaches the headstock. I cant be bothered but somebody else might have the time and inclincation.

Ah but Martin, apparently someone already has...



Alright ALRIGHT quiet down - one at a time! Oh you were one at a time, right then lets see, so we've got -

1 x Magical tone controlling and improving neck join for the benefit of all

1 x Pony for Jim (presumably to help you haul around those mahogany logs)

2 x Front Teeth for Puff (I won't ask how you lost yours) (hmm that said, they could come in handy... better make it 4 x Front Teeth)

Anyone else?

Jeremy

[Puff]

I recall input from some for whom I have high regard in terms of neck/body work but I think they were basing it on leckies. Really no different in the final call but. Their call was bolt on by a frag from neck-through with set neck a relatively distant third.
Those guys built/build and play up in the icon strata, well they build/built there

[jeffhigh]

It's a pretty common belief at the UMGF that the dovetail neck joint is an essential component in getting the Martin "whoomp".
Doesn't make it true

[Puff]

I gets that wiff boiled cabbage or brussel sprouts

[Dominic]

I just mentioned this in the other thread. There was a test reported in the GAL journal a while ago. It found bolt on and through necks the best and glued joint necks the worst in terms of sustain. Lower sustain means energy lost at the joint and not available at the bridge.
Dom

[Clancy]

there is such a legal term called "puffery"

There you go Puff, anything you say is perfectly legal!

[JJ model]

Then I think all those China made guitars are superb in sound bcos they all used this kind of joint, from cutting to gluing the neck to body ( dove-tail joint ) it hardly cross 2 mins max! maybe those guys must change a different label.......... it took me a couple of hours to fix my neck with bolts! and i guess the sound of my guitars must be stuck in those small gaps between the neck and body.
remember.....60% of the cost goes to publicity! wonder if that cost goes to those china made guitars!?!?!?!