Grain filler

[rocket]

I purchased a can of colortone water based grain filler a while back but as yet haven't even opened the can to see what it was like.I've been using Wests system epoxy for a range of things and usually have a good result, but on a couple of occasions it hasn't set hard enough to sand effectively, clogging paper, still feels a bit tacky, so i thought i'd check out reviews on Stumac's site to see how the waterbased stuff was performing, ten reviews, ten people canned the crap out of the product, can't see them selling much of that product! I think my container of the stuff is going to stay unopened.
Back to the Wests epoxy, the only reason i can thinkof for the occasional poor hardening is inacurate mixing! could anyone expand on that?

[Kim]

Rod,

I would say that inaccurate mixing is the most likely culprit...not setting up properly is usually the result of too much 'hardener'.

Another mild possibility for not sanding well could be "amine blush". This is a reaction of most epoxies, specifically the amino acids used in the formulation of hardeners, that is triggered by ambient conditions during mix and application. i.e. Moisture in the air + adequate carbon dioxide present during mixing and curing + correct temperature range 'will' result in amine blush in most any epoxy. Their are low amine formulations on the market, however their modulus of elasticity is such that they are unsuitable for grain filling because they remain quite soft and flexible making them highly scuff resistant. This is great in certain applications, but not something you want encourage if you intend to sand it back. Anyone planning on using epoxy who has not heard of this should search "amine blush" on this site as I have provided detail in the past. It really is something people should understand well when using epoxies.

As for water based filler, it is not fair to wrap them all in one category...have a go at aussie made "Timbermate" and see how you go. I think it is a very good product that is cheap, available at any local hardware, 'very' easy to apply and sand, and I have not experienced 'any' no sink back whatsoever. That said I live in a temperate region and I do know that Allen has used the product and reported 'some' sink back when it is used in the tropics. This would suggest it remains somewhat more hygroscopic than some woods and if used in such an environment it would be tricky to determine at what point on the hygrometer you would apply a finish. But if the RH is relatively stable in your area, this should not be a problem.

Cheers

Kim

[peter.coombe]

I believe that the Stew Mac water based filler is the Target Coatings filler. I did get one can from Stew Mac and it seems to be the same stuff. I have read all the reviews and most certainly most do can it, but in most cases I think it is a problem with technique. This filler does work, I have been using the Target Coatings filler for years. I use shellac/filler/shellac/finish, and use as many coats as it takes. Not had any problems with shrinkqge, and it is completely clear, and stays clear, unlike some other "clear" fillers I have tried in the past. Not everyone hates it, some think it is great so these people must be using the correct technique. I would not take too much notice of the instructions. If you wait as long as the instruments tell you then it is likely to be too dry to work. This stuff dries really fast, so work on smaller areas at a time, and make sure you allow enough time for it to dry completely between coats (at least 2 hrs). One coat is very unlikely to be enough, so you can safely ignore those who are canning it after trying one coat only. Because it dries so fast, you can completely fill the grain in less elapsed time than epoxy, but it is likely to be more work - i.e. more coats and more sanding. That does not matter much for me because a mandolin is a small instrument, but since I started making guitars I am thinking seriously of switching to Zpoxy for the guitars in order to reduce the amount of work involved. Zpoxy is messy and toxic (some people can develop severe allergies to epoxy and Zpoxy is one of the worst), and takes longer, but is less work for the same result. Zpoxy is a 1:1 mix, so the proportions are not as easy to get wrong as West Systems which is 5:1. I like the water based filler because of the low toxicity and can't see any reason not to use it on my mandolins.

[rocket]

Thanks Kim and Peter, still deciding which way to go, i do like using Timbermate on other projects i think it's fantastic but i'm not confident that it will portray the natural colour of the blackwood i'm filling, i know i can tint it but then i don't want any colour to bleed into the timber either. Another positive for the Timbermate is that it's very easy to sand back, and on the negative side for an epoxy being used on an archtop it becomes difficult to blade that excess off so there is very little left on the work to sand back, like when being used on a flat top instrument. I think i'll have a drink and give it a bit more thought
Cheers,,,,
Rod.

[Kim]

My advice would be to use a test piece of blackwood and as far as colour match goes, it is quite standard practices to have the grain filler 'substantially' darker than the wood being filled...take a look at a mahogany Martin...dark chocolate fill and the contrasts looks very good, the pores are filled, the finish is high gloss and smooth, but what is underneath still looks very much like natural wood because the contrast 'highlights' the grain.

I will add that the filler should not influence the surrounding wood as it is meant to be sanded away and left only in the pores and then wiped down with a lightly damped cloth to remove any dust deposits.

Cheers

Kim

[rocket]

I'm hear'n ya Kim!! i can feel a decision coming on!!!

[kiwinoz62]

Hi all,
A work colleague gave me a can of Feast Watson sanding sealer to try out. I hope to be able to do that this week on some scrap timber.
Will come back with the results. . .

[Kim]

As a result of personal experience, I avoid using sanding sealers of any kind on 'anything' I make these days. They are a high solids, high build medium and not only does the high solids content interfere with the clarity of the final finish, they often introduce adhesion problems down the track. Bottom line, I do not consider any of these products suitable for application on something as labour intensive as a musical instrument.

Cheers

Kim

[kiwinoz62]

Thanks Kim,

You've probably saved me alot of sweet & tears.

[ozwood]

I'm With Kim ,

The Timbermate product is easy to use , safe and work's well , I won't use epoxy after seeing the horror stories on this forum, I have enough Allergies, with out developing any more , so it's Timbermate for me , I also use a tint a little darker than the target wood depending on what timber it is. I thin it with Demineralised water , till it's a thin paste , approx the consistency of toothpaste then use a fine blade spreader and work accross the grain , let it dry sand/ scrape till i'm happy ,at first it's looks a little light and somewhat alarming until you coat over it , then It goes back to the undried colour, I also apply a sealer coat of shelac before I use it to prevent any unwanted staining , and then another after I have sanded the Grain filler back.

Cheers,

Paul.

[rocket]

THe shellac sealer sounds like a good idea Paul!
Cheers
Rod.

[duh Padma]

Toxic epoxy...what can one say?

My philosophy is simple..."if it gets the pig clean ...use it"

In other words...whatever you can shove into them pours that will stay put and not look like they been filled un less of course you like that "filled look" is a valid pour filler. Yes "toxic epoxy" will get the pig clean, but at what price?

Is like dis...

Some fine sawdust, cayolin clay, chalk, corn starch or talcum powder, baking soda ect, with an add colourant to match the wood and a binder of some sort such as ...CA, epoxy, white glue, hide glue, juice from boiled down fish heads and pigs feet, jello, egg whites and in some cases even sperm as a binder ~ make valid pour fillers. But we don't hear of the last one much any more.

So to recap...a filler, some colourant and a binder = pour filler.

Thats one heck of a lot of variations of options...and you know what...they will all " get the pig clean" or the pours filled.

So it depends if ya wanna mix up yer own "brand of filler" for peanuts, or are going through a Stew Mack Attack and got some discretionary funds left over from that early retirement buyout package burning a hole in your pocket.

Now me, well me more a Mr. Natural kinda guy and wood more n likely leave the pours to sweat it out on there own instead of pluggin em all up. But then thats just me.



blessings
the
Padma

[Puff]

Hey Pad you omitted ground marble as a filler
Ya reckon you could edit your disclaimer to "ANZLF" instead of "ANSLF" please

[kiwigeo]

Hey Pad you omitted ground marble as a filler
Ya reckon you could edit your disclaimer to "ANZLF" instead of "ANSLF" please

Yeah I'm wondering where the hell 'New Sealand" is???

[Puff]

And Now Something Left Field.....

[DarwinStrings]

Hey Pad you omitted ground marble as a filler
Ya reckon you could edit your disclaimer to "ANZLF" instead of "ANSLF" please

Yeah I'm wondering where the hell 'New Sealand" is???

I thought it was a interesting twist on the translation of the Dutch group of islands that N.Z. is named after. "Zeeland" does translate to Sea land so was assuming Padma was giving us a lesson in linguistics, you know, prompting us to think rather than just read and learn parrot fashion.

Jim

If computers are the tool of today is a craftsman like me a geek of yesterday?

[duh Padma]

Congratulations Puff,

3 punten voor het vangen van het en


Yay Jim,

krijgen uw onbelangrijke dingt vaardigheden u de gouden ster en vijf punten voor het rekenen van die één uit.

Zegeningen
duh Padma

[Puff]

I thought it was a simple typo.

[duh Padma]

I thought it was a simple typo.

well Puff...
as Millarepa said...

"Do not think,
do not act,
do not meditate!
Leave your mind in its natural state."


blessings
duh Padma

[Puff]

One L in Milarepa?
Thanks for the edit

[kiwigeo]

I thought it was a interesting twist on the translation of the Dutch group of islands that N.Z. is named after. "Zeeland" does translate to Sea land so was assuming Padma was giving us a lesson in linguistics, you know, prompting us to think rather than just read and learn parrot fashion.

At only one time in it's history has NZ had a name that starts with "S" and that only lasted 3 years.

Abel Tasman sighted New Zealand in 1642 and named it Staten Landt, assuming it was connected to land off the southern tip of South America. In 1645 Dutch cartographers renamed the land Nova Zeelandia after the Dutch province of Zeeland. British explorer James Cook subsequently anglicised the name to New Zealand.

[kiwigeo]

I thought it was a simple typo.

Me too......I saw "ANSILF" mentioned at one stage. The Irish or the Indians briefly joined the forum..

[liam_fnq]

Those stinkin' Irish are always trying to get on the band wagon.........................

[DarwinStrings]

Yay Jim,

krijgen uw onbelangrijke dingt vaardigheden u de gouden ster en vijf punten voor het rekenen van die één uit.

Zegeningen
duh Padma

Cheers big ears, but what do I do with the five points?

Jim

[Puff]

Possibly the same as I do with the three but with a tad more sustain?