Somogyi Vid

[esomogyi]

I am still going to disagree with the concept of the Guitar as an "Air Pump"
The explanation that it moves air molecules.........well I move air molecules whenever I walk around, but that does not make me a pump.
I am a little surprised that having made such a big thing about calling the guitar an air pump, Ervin Somogyi is now saying that it does not matter what we call it.
Words, especially in the technical and scientific fields do matter and it is important that they be used with precision.

Hello Jeff High, and all:

You're perfectly correct in what you say. The guitar is an air pressure device/generator. It is also a mechanical-to-vibrational-energy converter, and also an impedance damper, and other things as well -- more so than it is an air pump in your sense of the word. And words used in technical and scientific fields do matter and should be used with precision.

My book is not a scientific tract, however: it's a didactic and conceptual one. The newly published book Engineering the Guitar, on the other hand, is a scientific tract, and a mighty good one.

I'd like you to consider also that my use of the phrase 'air pump' is not used in ignorance nor directed at claiming some form of more-expertise-than-thou. Rather, my use of that phrase is descriptive, suggestive, illustrative, narrative, and strategic -- in the sense that the phrase 'air pump' is user-friendly and less likely to glaze the reader's eyes over than something that is technically more accurate but sounding more abstruse.

I don't think that I've been making a big deal about any of this, although I do admit that I don't much care exactly what the guitar is labeled as so long as my students are able to feel that I've conveyed to them something that might be useful, as opposed to making a misrepresentation or, worse, telling them something that I know to be untrue.

I repeat: my objective is to convey conceptual and practical information rather than merely rigorously technical information. There's no question that both kinds can get the job done, by anyone conversant with either type of jargon. But I don't feel that I'm doing anyone a disservice by using colloquial language.

Here's something interesting to try: next time you are near your guitar, put one hand in front of the soundhole and tap on or near the bridge with your other one. You'll feel a breath of air coming out of the soundhole and pushing against the palm of your hand: it's air displacement by the 'woof' of the soundbox. Better, more sensitive guitars will blow more air onto your hand than run-of-the-mill guitars will.

I make the point in my book that right-brained and left-brained people each have awesome contributions to make on the planet, but that communication between them is often likely to be like a conversation between your average gun owner and a gun control advocate (at least, in the U.S.).

Thank you for your remarks. Ervin S.

[jeffhigh]

Thanks for the explanation of your illustrative approach.
It is not a path that works for me though obviously for many it does.
However if I were to use an analogy, if the guitar was a pump similar to the heart, it would be in desperate need of a defibrilator, cause it is beating away rapidly but just pushing and pulling rather than moving fluid.
regards
Jeff

[Kim]

Ervin,

Welcome to the ANZLF and thank you very much for dropping in to make your reply in person, it certainly has cleared the air and once again i apologize for the misinterpretation of circumstances, indeed these things do happen sometimes.

I am thrilled you have chosen to join us and as mentioned earlier, your participation at any level will be most appreciated by all. Given the isolation we really do relish the opportunity to share in the wisdom and experience bought to the ANZLF by such successful luthiers as yourself and of course Rick Turner.

As to what i had in mind regarding your own forum within the ANZLF, i was thinking how you must get 'many' emails from those who have purchased your books and are asking for clarification or more specific information on certain points. I would imagine that many of these approaches would be very similar in topic and require very much the same answer.

My suggestion is to set-up and allow you access and editing privileges within an area specifically related to your books in which you could then post examples of those questions and your considered reply. This could serve as a first reference point of direction for inquiring minds and also allow you to then quickly and easily add supplementary advice, or edit content already posted as you see fit without the need to interfere with the HTML code of your own website. It's just a thought that if managed correctly may even 'save' some of your valuable time, the offer remains open ended.

Once again it is great to have you with us and as Allen mentioned, we really do look forward to your input at any level.

Cheers

Kim

[esomogyi]

Ervin,


My suggestion is to set-up and allow you access and editing privileges within an area specifically related to your books in which you could then post examples of those questions and your considered reply. This could serve as a first reference point of direction for inquiring minds and also allow you to then quickly and easily add supplementary advice, or edit content already posted as you see fit without the need to interfere with the HTML code of your own website. It's just a thought that if managed correctly may even 'save' some of your valuable time, the offer remains open ended.

Kim

Hi, Kim:

Thank you for your quick reply. I don't happen to be very computer/web savvy, so you'll have to explain how your interesting sounding proposal works, in terms of the mechanical steps it involves. So as not to waste forum time or space with this, how about if you simply write to me at [email protected] and we can discuss the matter at leisure?

But along the lines of providing answers to what well may wind up being a bunch of the same questions, as you pointed out, I do have a DVD being released at the end of this month that might serve that sort of purpose. I gave a lecture presentation on the Voice and Voicing of the guitar at the Healdsburg guitar show in August; that was where I met the Thomas Lloyd people from the school in Melbourne whom I mentioned previously. My presentation was filmed and it's being edited now. I intend to market it through my website and through L.M.I.

This DVD is an hour-long verbal explanation in lecture and demonstration form, of my understanding of how the guitar works, as well as some of the things one can do to shape its voice and bring it out. The material is not different from what I've written in my books but it is verbally rather than literarily delivered -- along with lots of visual aids, teaching devices, and hands-on examples. I did a lot of preparation work on this presentation and I think the DVD will bear that out. It will likely work very well for people who take information in better if it is in spoken form, with concrete examples.

I am teaching my annual voicing class next month, from November 1 through the 7th, and I have signed one of your members from South Australia up! He'll probably be an interesting participant in your forum when he returns, with lots of things to say.

I continue to be impressed by the generally high level of postings on this forum.

Best regards, Ervin Somogyi

[esomogyi]

[quote="Ricardo"]
Over the years I have purchased many very special guitars from some very well known luthier’s and all of them have to some extent not been very willing or have not disclosed some of the information that make their guitars what they are.

Hello, Richard:

You make some interesting points. I thought I'd make a comment about the "secrecy" comment, just to throw in my two cents' worth.

I've met a lot of luthiers over the years and have been in awe of the sheer variety of approaches, talents, skills, attitudes, etc. that they represent as a group. And yet, in that variety, there are certain divisions that pop up often enough so that I've noticed them.

The "secrecy" thing is complicated, and loaded. It includes genuine secrecy (the fear that a maker will lose some advantage if he reveals certain facts). It also includes doing a balancing act between being a successful miser and a member of the lutherie community who is appreciated for one's generosity of mind and spirit.

Also, lutherie has mostly been a blue-collar affiliated craft. Yes, there are professionals in medicine and law and engineering, etc, that make guitars; but most of the ones I've ever known were not of those strata at all. This is certainly so in the U.S., and probably so in Australia as well. What this means is that the kind of people who are attracted to lutherie are very largely hands-on people who are not particularly at home with words. I don't mean that they don't talk; I mean that speaking coherently about their work, the way a teacher or lecturer rather than a lay person might, isn't what they're best at.

In my experience, the very best luthiers are the not very articulate ones: they build great guitars, but they can't really find the words to explain what they do, outside of a bunch of technical mumbo-jumbo. Maybe this is part of what you have observed, and it comes across as secrecy. On the other hand, in my experience, there are luthiers who are quite wordy and gregarious and go around making good impressions wherever they go. Their skill is very much verbal and interpersonal and they can talk your head off (in comparison to the former group). They certainly don't project secrecy. And in my opinion their guitars aren't as good. Their focus is largely on the presentation, which involves a different skill set.

What I mean is that, in my experience, inarticulate individuals have been the best luthiers and the articulate ones have been the best salesmen. This is huuuuuugely simplified, of course, because there are many exceptions to this kind of thing (I think I'm one of them). But think of the luthiers you know, and see if they don't fit this general rule.

I hope this makes some sense.

Sincerely, Ervin Somogyi

[kiwigeo]

I am teaching my annual voicing class next month, from November 1 through the 7th, and I have signed one of your members from South Australia up! He'll probably be an interesting participant in your forum when he returns, with lots of things to say.

Before you ask..No its not me. Whoever it is is keeping very quiet

[chris paulick]

Pretty interesting and now a long discussion. I think a lot of your questions would be better answered/ asked if you read the books. If you find they aren't your cup of tea then sale them.

I think a reason that people don't discuss the material is because there is a lot to it and one would have to take the time to read all of the material and absorb it a while before discussing it. Reading them will definately educate you and give you another angle to view the guitar at.

You might not really want a responsive guitar. Depends on what tone you are after and style of playing you are geared to and the market you are after.
I have them and I'm about finished with the 'Responsive Guitar" and I'm happy with the purchase.
Thanks Ervin.

[Kim]

Pretty interesting and now a long discussion. I think a lot of your questions would be bettered answered/ asked if you read the books. If you find they aren't your cup of tea then sale them.

Pretty interesting first post Chis, I would have thought an into to be a nice touch though.

Anyhow, exactly what questions and by whom??? I don't know why you or anyone else who had read their way through would assume the topic or core of this thread to be an assessment of Ervin's books because that simply was never the case regardless of what folks read into it 2 weeks after it started.

Maybe the truth of the matter is that this thread is now just too long for some to absorb when trying to pick up from start to finish all in one go and what needed to be said here already has been.

Welcome to the ANZLF.

Kim

[chris paulick]

Thanks for the Welcome Kim and Hello everyone. I thought I'd try and sneak in without being noticed as a newbie on this forum. I didn't want you all to think I was a forum rat.
As far as the questions there were several as far as your Air Pump that was explained as Ervin has explained it and a few by others like the different building styles as to a responsive or reflective back and a few more . I wasn't directing it to just one person and didn't mean to offend anyone by it.
And well you are correct that I did just read the whole discussion so it seemed long to me but as I said very interesting.
I guess my review on the book might be off time/ late and you all are passed that but I thought I'd just give it a thumbs up for anyone else who is on the fence about a purchase. I can't really say anything about the second book as I only looked through it quickly but a few interesting jigs caught my eye. I always like to see peoples jigs and how they build. Who doesn't though?
I hope to spend a little more time over here as you all seem to have a little different take on things at times and I'm always open for different ideas and angles of view.

[Nick]

I hope to spend a little more time over here as you all seem to have a little different take on things at times and I'm always open for different ideas and angles of view.

Welcome to the best forum Chris I've seen your video contributions & posts over on OLF and your input to this forum will be a welcome addition, more ideas into the pot.It will also be an opportunity for you to see the excellent work being produced in the two best countries in the world!
We do tend to look at things differently from time to time because of the geographical isolation of Australia & NZ from the "hub" of instrument making (Europe & USA) we have had to formulate our own theories and ways of doing things (Necessity is the mother of invention).

[esomogyi]

Hello, Gentlemen:

I’ve been absent from this forum for more than a month, but returned to it this week to check in on the state of discussions. I see it’s still going strong.

About my recently published books: I’m gratified that many of you have positive things to say about them (in spite of their shockingly high price), and find them both stimulating and useful. That’s what I had always hoped they would be.

There are a few threads that are not all that positive, though, and I thought I’d make a few remarks about these. The first one is about my, uh, self-serving greed in quashing Holger and Cindy Obenaus’ videos of me. This one certainly seems worth a comment. I believe that I said something about this previously, but here we go again:

Five years ago film-makers Holger and Cindy Obenaus, under the business name of Gourmet Guitars, approached me with a proposal to film me as part of an ambitious multi-DVD project of interviewing (in depth) a handful of today’s prominent guitar makers. I wouldn’t be paid anything, but the promotional value was offered as a worthwhile quid-pro-quo. I agreed., They filmed me, and . . . . well, after many months . . . nothing at all happened. Gourmet Guitars sort of disappeared. I stopped hearing about or from them. I eventually heard, through the grapevine, that the Gourmet Guitars project had been abandoned. I was sorry to hear this; Holger and Cindy were good people, but clearly the enterprise had failed.

Fast-forward four years. I filmed a lecture on Voicing the Guitar at last August’s Healdsburg Guitar Festival. Rather, I hired a film-maker to film and edit my presentation and turn it into a DVD that I would sell. We planned this, budgeted, made arrangements and commitments, and went ahead and did it.

Then, after the filming had been done and in the middle of the editing process, Holger and Cindy called me up to let me know that even though they’d had hit a lot of snags and detours in the past few years, they’d just released the first segment of the Somogyi interview (that they’d filmed) on YouTube, and were imminently going to release the rest of the interview in segments. It seems that in the intervening years the project had ceased to be any kind of commercial venture and was now simply going to be put on YouTube, and for free!

You can imagine how delighted my film maker and I were to hear this. We’d gone to quite some trouble to pay for and film a complex, well organized presentation, only to be told at the last minute that the same -- or at least competing -- material was going to be broadcast for free. Yup; the thrill factor was minimal.

We tried to get a hold of Holger and Cindy. Unfortunately, they’d left on a vacation trip immediately after they contacted me and were unavailable. This was just getting better and better. Did we feel panicked, blindsided, frustrated, and confused? Yessir.

An outside observer of these events might comment that, well, surely Holger and Cindy had every right to do whatever they wanted to with that film, whenever they wanted it. I cannot, in clear-headedness, disagree. But clear-headedness had, if I may put it like this, taken a few days off. Feeling quite blindsided by this episode of bad timing, and more or less put to disadvantage by events not of our own making, we filed a protest with YouTube to prevent the Gourmet Guitars material from being aired, at least until we could straighten the matter out. We really did not want material similar to ours being released for free, just before we wanted to put out a DVD that we wanted to sell, without having some say-so in the matter.

This isn’t exactly a difficult scenario to appreciate, I think. But if I’m going to be criticized for my behaviors in that instance, keep in mind that this is what it was.

And, from a broader, more adult perspective, and bringing a basic sense of humor to this, doesn’t it seem to you all that this is at bottom, a rather petty and inconsequential thing to get all excited about? Give me a break, guys. I mean, if I’m going to be ill-thought of, shouldn’t it be for something really, well, important -- like my looting, pillaging, and rapine? Well, it’s just a thought.

We did eventually get hold of Holger and Cindy and had a series of, uh, awkward conversations. In brief, we agreed that (1) there were no bad people involved in this, just inept timing; (2) we’d acted hastily in yanking the Gourmet Guitars video off YouTube -- although it would have been helpful had Holger and Cindy not absented themselves immediately after their initial communication; (3) it would also have helped if this had not been the only communication we’d had in three and a half years -- to let me know that the project was still under consideration, and in what ways. As it was, it was perfectly understandable that these projects would collide, given the timing and circumstances. Holger and Cindy agreed to send me DVD copies of the material they intended to put on YouTube, so that we (my guys and I) could at least see what we were at odds about.

Pretty soon, my guys and I realized that Holger and Cindy had the legal right to air their film in any way that they wanted. It might or might not affect our own project one way or another, but what was done was done, and you win some and you lose some. I was embarrassed by how ineptly everyone concerned had handled their end of it, and I quickly rescinded our protest with YouTube. I never did receive the DVDs of the YouTube materials, either then or now. I have not seen the YouTube postings at all, and I don’t know what they communicate or what information they contain. I hope the material is interesting and informative -- as it was intended to be from the beginning. I have high regard for Holger and Cindy and acknowledge that they were doing the best they could, just as we all do.

So that was what that was all about; I hope I don’t have to go over this stuff again. If there are any of you out there who have not experienced a business or personal misunderstanding of some bothersome-ness, raise your hands.

Finally, I don’t want to put anyone of you to sleep by writing a novel here, so I’m going to sign off and write another posting later this evening. I’ll write you about the DVD project we filmed, that was the precipitator of all this.

Cheers, Ervin Somogyi

[Allen]

Clears things up just fine Ervin. I've very glad that you've popped back in.

It never worried me at all in the first place about the video's, but others might find this changes things.

And finally, you might be just a bit too polite for Australian sensibilities. If that happened to any of us....well, let's just say things would be a lot more colourful.

[Paul B]

Thanks for shedding some light on the matter for us Ervin, there's always two sides to every story.

esomogyi wrote:

So that was what that was all about; I hope I don’t have to go over this stuff again. If there are any of you out there who have not experienced a business or personal misunderstanding of some bothersome-ness, raise your hands.

I reckon I won't be raising my hand right now.

[Kim]

Good to see you back with us Ervin, and i look forward to your post regarding the new video.

I think you have more than adequately clarified the situation. The point you raised about your discussion with Holger and Cindy in which you all agreed "there were no bad people involved" also rings true for any negative that you feel had been generated in this thread.

It's true to say that some seeds of suspicion about your motives were sown upon ground made to appear fertile by a lack of insight into the series of events and circumstance you describe. However the light of your earlier post of a few months back had made them quickly wither just as your continued participation on this forum now is proof in the pudding, if any more was needed, of your openness and approachability. I would like to thank you for the graciousness you have shown in offering an explanation to people, such as myself, when you owe us nothing at all.

Hopefully now that the air is very clear, you will feel compelled to join us in other topics relative to our shared craft sometime in the future. On another note, i must apologise for not getting back to you re; the Q&A section on the ANZLF for your book. The forum has been created but remains invisible to all but the moderators team. I was to work out how best to make it work for you and hit a few questions which caused the idea to get railroaded by life. However if you are still interested i can work with the rest of the admin team to get something happening, as i said a while back, the offer is open ended.

Cheers

Kim

[Hesh1956]

Hi Ervin and thanks for that - one can now make sense of the two desperate efforts at promotion.

Just a thought and not to rekindle any dispute but it seems to me that you agreed to be filmed for the purpose of a Gourmet Guitars episode (excellent DVDs, I have all of them) and not for a YouTube. Sounds like all bets were off when no Gourmet Guitars featuring you resulted.

In any event being nearly as long winded as you.. Very Happy with no insult intended only the utmost respect I appreciate that you filled us in.

Your excellent books that I am looking at right now in my shop office could also be titled "For Whom The Top Tolls" because in my humble opinion you sir are an excellent writer as well.

Many thanks!

[WaddyT]

You are right, Hesh, and the books are worth every penny, and then some! I am in the process of starting my second time through..... I read slowly !

[Dennis Leahy]

Ervin,

I'll pop back in here and extend/clarify/rescind my earlier remarks, now that I know you're popping in here and reading again.

Believe it or not, I already did start doing this once, at about the same time Kim did. However, my critical battery backup UPS for my computer had died, unbeknownst to me, and so when we had our bi-monthly power outage, I lost my post to you. So, I'll re-read and re-compose.

Dennis

[esomogyi]

Hello, all:

I say once again, I’m grateful to those of you who have been making positive comments about my books and my work in general. Lutherie is a tough gig and there’s not one of us in this line of work that doesn’t from time to time wish we had opted instead for a lucrative and easy career in selling used automobiles. But I am one of the lucky few who can claim to make a living at this.

Just between you and me, it’s not a great living, in spite of rumblings about how I machinate so as to coldly suck the money out of as many people as I can by overpricing my merchandise. I’m paraphrasing various mutterings I’ve read, of course. IMHO, those kinds of comments are more appropriately and intelligently aimed to people such as corporate lawyers, hospital administrators, oil and tobacco company CEOs, investment bankers, politicians, entertainment industry merchandisers, drug dealers (legal and otherwise), stockbrokers, and such.

Me, I wake up in the mornings, fix my steely gaze on empires I intend to conquer, and put my pants on. This latter is very important. I then boldly dash to my workbench and proceed to cover myself with sawdust and wood shavings for the next ten or twelve hours. In the process of doing this six days a week over forty years I’ve managed to write two books, more than a hundred articles on all aspects of lutherie, exhibited and lectured and given workshops at almost 300 (I counted them!) conventions, exhibitions and symposia, trained a bunch of apprentices, spent (and continue to spend) endless hours email-corresponding with instrument makers from all parts of the globe, and made a whole bunch of pretty decent guitars. So, contrary to some other rumors, it’s not exactly as though I’ve held all my lutherie secrets prisoner, as though they were Arabs at Guantanamo.

Finally, when I was young, all I had was some testosterone and unrealized potential in most areas of life; but by now I’ve achieved many venerable goals such as getting old, grey, somewhat saggy, and wrinkled -- while managing to retain most of my teeth, hair, eyesight, sense of humor, and wits. Hell, if that isn’t making progress, I don’t know what is.

Yesteday I posted my account of the Great Video Exclusion fiasco. In that posting I mentioned my own recent filming project, which so unfortunately collided with that Gourmet Guitars/YouTube affair. My film is now a DVD of the lecture that I gave -- on the subject of Voicing the Guitar -- to a roomful of luthiers at the 2009 Healdsburg Guitar Festival. I’m going to be selling this DVD from my website, www.esomogyi.com It is an interesting presentation, and an excellent companion to my books in that it offers a verbal and visual account of my approach to guitar making, rather than simply a written one. I won’t mention the price until the nurses with smelling salts have had a chance to position themselves.

Here’s a brief overview of the DVD. There’s some great guitar music by Todd Hallawell, a ferociously talented musician. The topless dancers failed to show up at starting time, so instead, I talked about the same principles of instrument making that I have written about. These are: the Cube Rule, stiffness-to-weight ratios of materials, the main vibrating modes of guitar tops (i.e., the monopole, cross-dipole, and long dipole), essential monocoque construction, the fundamental dynamics of Spanish vs. steel string guitars, “X” bracing vs. fan bracing vs. lattice bracing vs. ladder bracing [basically, these are just different strategies for manipulating vibrating action through orientation, stiffness, thickness, size, height, profile, mass, distribution, length, proximity, and connectedness/unconnectedness of structure], impedance, and the importance of the guitar’s back. This last one is usually overlooked in people’s headlong rush to immerse one’s self in the fine points of face design, thickness measurements, bracing, bridge, etc.

There are people who seem to believe that the back is there more or less to keep the dust out of the soundbox. But the fact is that if the top is the guitar’s heart and soul, then the back is its lungs: it allows the box to breathe. Great guitars invariably have greatly responsive faces and greatly responsive backs: they work as a team. And, as I’ve said previously, I find that the one sentence that best captures the idea that the voice of the guitar is a function of the combined interactions of all of its [subtly and delicately balanced] dynamic elements is: The Guitar Functions As An Air Pump.

Getting back to the ANZLF and the various dialogue threads that it hosts, I wanted to reach out to a few of the readers/participants who have been posting the longest and most frequent comments -- in private and/or on the forum itself -- and make a proposal to them. Specifically, I thought that I’d offer Hesh, Jeff High, Dominic Regan, and Kim each a copy of my recent DVD, as a gift. You have each been prominently vociferous -- both pro and con -- in the matter of my various contributions to guitar making. (These are . . . oh, you know: everything from years of selfless service, to my turgidly erudite contributions to the lore and lexicon of latter-day lutherie, to (if some are to be believed) the dissemination of a whole bunch of more or less plausible fictions of guitar making theory. And everything in between. I mean, that pretty much covers the field, eh?

ASIDE: Heavens, I do hope that my sense of humor is not too dry and that no one is taking this toooooooo seriously.

I’d like to send each of Hesh, Jeff High, Dominic, and Kim one of my DVDs, at no cost -- on the condition that you watch them and then post your opinions of the contents, good or bad, on the discussion forum. Please be so kind as to send me your mailing addresses (write me an email), and I’ll ship these puppies off.

Are the nurses in position yet? The DVD retails for $50 U.S., about average for such products these days.

Sincerely, Ervin Somogyi

P.S.: I’ve looked more closely into the matter of mailing costs to Australia. You blokes are right: you’re getting shafted.

P.P.S.: The DVD is a well-filmed and recorded product. When viewing it, and you come to the part about tap tones and listening, DO SO WITH GOOD QUALITY EARPHONES. Listening through your normal small speakers will probably not be a very impressive experience.

[Hesh1956]

Many thanks Ervin for selecting me to receive a copy of your DVD!

I'll be happy to post my comments after viewing and listening to the DVD and I will also use a pair of vintage Sennheiser 414 headphones.

Thanks again - You made my day!

[Kim]

Thank you Ervin,

I really do look forward to giving the DVD a very careful watch and listening with my own pair of Sennheisers. I must add that this is extremely generous of you and i am most grateful, and somewhat humbled, to have been considered worthy of voicing my observations of your DVD on the open forum. However i shall endeavor to do so honestly and with as much detail as i can.

I had included my mailing address in my PM to you about the FAQ forum, did you receive it OK?

Cheers and thank you again.

Kim

[Dennis Leahy]

OK, one more attempt to revisit my remarks, and make remarks about my remarks, now that Ervin has popped in and has not only explained his side of the Gourmet Guitars video fiasco to clearly exonerate himself from any nefarious intent, but has also introduced himself, his real self, his vulnerable self, (his witty self), and I cannot let my words stand.

First of all, I came off as Universal Referee to the Cosmos: calling a foul on a subject where I didn't seem to have Universal Conciousness. With Ervin's revelation of the facts on his side of the story of the video, I must rescind the red card, reinstate Ervin back into the game, and give him a few free kicks. Ervin, I'm sorry to have "called a foul" before knowing your side.

Next, I switch into my Arrogant Know-It-All hat. "To me personally (someone who is very comfortable outside the box, tinkering, using intuition), he has nothing to sell. I already bought into the notion. "

Yikes! Who wrote that? Some arrogant prick must have commandeered my keyboard and... well, no, it was me. "...has nothing to sell", well, I could rephrase that and soften the blow, say something more along the lines that if the major thrust of the books is to break luthiers out of the 'copy a Martin' mentality or the 'blindly follow the plans' mindset, that I was already with him. But for me to make that remark, to an accomplished luthier, after completing one guitar... I guess it would be comical, if you could get past the snottiness. Ervin, I may hear a different drummer and want to build in a different way than you, but I could sure as hell learn 1,000,000 things from you. I apologize for that remark - form and substance. Same goes for putting the word information in quotes in the sentence that followed. As if it was not really information? Well, in that case it couldn't have been me, and I suspect that some arrogant prick must have commandeered my keyboard.

"I'm not holding my breath, because it seems that Somogyi either cannot articulate or else has decided not to divulge the real lessons he has won in his shop - that which he builds into his instruments that garner praise from folks like Hesh." Now this remark is interesting: a backhanded compliment wrapped in misinformation, and tied with a petulant ribbon. The phrase 'cannot articulate' was intended in the sense that some things are impossible to articulate, experiential, but could be taken as a put-down. Is wasn't intended as a put-down - just a poor choice of words on my part. And in reading your follow-up letters here, it is now clear that the phrase 'decided not to divulge' certainly does not fit you. Thank you for making it clear that you are indeed doing your best to pass on the knowledge you've gained in your 40 years in lutherie.

Finally {gulp} there's the paragraph that starts with "Finally, there's no way to say this without sounding arrogant, " and ends with "You're welcome, Ervin." If we find the arrogant A-hole (insert asshole or arsehole , as appropriate for your part of the world) that wrote that stuff, I think we should beat him senseless with banjos, and use segments of his hard, dense skull as guitar saddles.

I don't believe in editing posts after the fact to remove embarrassing "information", but if I did, I'd just remove that paragraph and act like nothing happened. I guess I intended to take off my 'prick' hat, put on a religious collar, and ascend the pulpit, but I may have forgotten to take off the hat. My statements about my belief in a new emerging paradigm had no place here, and were use as a club to beat you up for your lack of insight to lead you to the same conclusions I'm espousing. Gawd, I wish I could say that I wrote that back when I was a teenager. I do have some strong opinions about a new paradigm, but should have saved them for the appropriate time and place - like maybe after a few dozen guitars (at least!) and offered gently as an alternative path, rather than branding those who don't agree as lacking in insight, or foresight.

In spite of some pretty heavy criticism, Ervin, you chose to walk directly into the (virtual) room, and state your case without bitterness or self righteousness. Maybe I have 1,000,001 things to learn from you. I love your wit and candor and you lack of pretentiousness. Keep doing what you're doing - and a big part of what you're doing is certainly expanding the box that lutherie used to be contained within. I promise never to pee in the punchbowl again!

-Dennis

Dennis Leahy wrote:
Kim wrote:
... the focus presented by Ervin Somogyi is "The Responsive Guitar" and you can't get much more responsive than hitting the back wall of a 3,500 seat concert venue with little or no amplification. ...

Kim

My take on the phrase "responsive guitar" is a "near-field" guitar, ultralight construction to allow a very light touch to produce a vibrational response - and yes, some "wasted" energy that the player physically feels in close proximity to the vibrating guitar.

This thread is about the videos that Somogyi allowed to be taped, then (apparently) changed his mind and decided he wanted to sell rather than just share. I call "foul" on that move.

Now, on the bigger picture of intellectual rights, and selling knowledge, and where the knowledge actually came from: other than a researcher that is performing research experiments on something that truly has never been studied before (which has to be very rare), everyone who possesses knowledge has it because of those who have come before. Almost all "new" information is derivative or based on the initial set of knowledge, acknowledged as acquired from the "shoulders of giants" (who were for the most part standing on some other giant's shoulders.)

I have not seen Somogyi's books, and only caught a glimpse of one of the videos. I probably have read all he has written and published (up to the very pricey books.) My take on that part of his knowledge that he is trying to market is to use some intuition rather than attempt to quantify specific numbers (thicknesses, deflection amounts, etc.) To me personally (someone who is very comfortable outside the box, tinkering, using intuition), he has nothing to sell. I already bought into the notion. For someone who has built pretty much 300 copies of a Martin guitar and finds it "maddening" to not have a clue when one of his guitars under construction will sound OK and one will sound great (such as Cumpiano - I'm quoting him), well then I suspect Somogyi's "information" would be mind blowing.

I write computer software. I can make software do "novel" things, but all of the building blocks of the code existed when I started. Same thing for musical composers - the 12 notes of the Western scale were there before they were born. And English language writers all use the same 80,000 words and quote back idioms, phrases, and speech patterns that they have heard others speak. I'm OK with admitting that all this creative stuff is derivative, and, in the context of today's modern capitalistic society, I guess I'm OK with people charging money to allow me to hear a song, read a book, or play a computer game. (The older I get, the more socialist I'm becoming, and altruistically, I would prefer that we all just share everything, but I digress.) So, if Somogyi has a couple of books he wants to sell for hundreds of dollars, or a video of a cornflake that looks like the face of Jesus, I'll take a pass on opening my wallet. But, I guess I'm OK with him marketing the derivative work. Quite frankly, if there is anything in those books that changes the face of lutherie, then in short order, that information will trickle down to those of us that didn't buy the books or the DVDs but are interactive participants of luthier forums. I'm not holding my breath, because it seems that Somogyi either cannot articulate or else has decided not to divulge the real lessons he has won in his shop - that which he builds into his instruments that garner praise from folks like Hesh.

Finally, there's no way to say this without sounding arrogant, so I'll just blurt it out. I believe that Somogyi might push the envelope of X-braced construction near the limit, but that variations on the Martin X-braced engineering and strings that are anchored to bridges poses an artificial limit to what a soundboard on a guitar box can do. I believe the next "great leap" involves neckblock to tailblock suspended bracing, pinless bridges with typical steelstring break angles over the saddle and strings that continue out the rear of the bridge to a tailpiece. I believe this new engineering paradigm will allow beginners to routinely achieve responsiveness in guitars that rival the work of luthiers that have honed and honed the X-paradigm to the brink of implosion. And, I believe this new engineering paradigm will allow experienced luthiers bubbling with intuition to achieve results impossible with the old paradigm. In a few years, or maybe a decade, I predict you'll be watching a Somogyi DVD extolling the virtues of the new engineering paradigm. You're welcome, Ervin.

Dennis

minor edits to fix typos, not change content

[jjh]

Damn I'm just jealous Mad Now Hesh, Jeff High, Dominic Regan, and Kim I hope to hear reviews coming soon. Ervin a kind and noble offer I'm glad people are revising their views.

[Hesh1956]

Yeah well I was ALWAYS a fan of Ervin - no revisions needed here.... Very Happy

But in all fairness I had talked to Ervin a couple of times prior and met Ervin and I KNEW him to be a cool dude!

Now knowing what we know and issues aside for those of us who have experienced Ervin's books and understand that there is an expectation that we are not looking for a "How To Build Your First Ever Guitar And Have Your Stinkin Hand Held All The While... - In 10 Easy Steps" book Ervin's new Books are a monumental achievement. I wish I could remember who said this first - there is nothing like them - but that sums it up nicely for me too.

The books are excellent and if you believe that the mysteries of learning to have some control over the sound of the guitars that you build is important to you these books are the new Guitar Builder's Bible in my humble opinion.

But be advised there is also an expectation that you will be ready, willing and able to think for yourself too. Ervin's style of conveying his points requires one to be present in the moment with all brain cells present. Well perhaps the ones lost in the 60's are not all that important anyway...

[Dominic]

Thanks Ervin, I will happily do a serious review of the DVD and post my findings.

An observation I have already made to Ervin is that it is shame that he needs to justify a simple commercial project like a book or DVD to the people who could potentially benefit the most. We don't put wood sellers through this kind of hassle. The wood is nice 'buy it' - I don't like/need that wood, 'don't buy it. But we don't go into a philosophical debate about the ethics of selling wood and no one suggests that Bob C should give it to us for free. It’s his livelihood right? (Although? Bob are you there?)

And yet the 'information' we receive from those that are considered the best in the field is often the most valuable addition we can make to our craft. A nice set of BRW is only as good as the skills that make it into a guitar. We can screw up a $200 B&S set in any number of ways and its scrap but the value of information from books or DVDs can last for ever. So in the scheme of things books and DVD give far better value for money than wood. And if you don’t buy the books you will end up benefitting from them anyway as tips gleaned from them invariably find there way into internet discussions and enrich everyone’s work.

So thanks Ervin, for sharing your skills with us. The best way we can pay you back is by becoming better at what we do.

Cheers
Dom

[dlodge]

What a fascinating read this forum is.

As a guitar builder who runs a publishing company it's fascinating to see the discussion about Ervin's books.

If you are an author you can forget about ever recouping the costs of the time it has taken you to write a book and put it together. Especially in Luthiery as it's such a niche field with not enough people purchasing books to generate any real income.

As an author if Ervin looked at costing his time to write the book he would be better off getting 50 of his brazilian rosewood b&s sets and having a bonfire and watch it all go up in smoke and then get back to building and never think of writing again.

Publishing a book has so many additional costs, printing, editing, indexing, photography, graphics, art work etc etc.

So he doesn’t give you 100% all the answers. Most of us dont really want to build a guitar that sounds 100% like Ervin's or Greg Smallman's, I certainly dont, I want my guitars to have my signature sound on them but maybe have some of the great qualities of these top of the line guitars. They give you guidelines on what works for them and some helpful hints and they share some of the mistakes they made.

The books may seem overpriced to some, as a publisher you set your purchase price on what it costs for you to produce the book, size of the market, pulling power of the author and you look at other titles in the same market place. I have one shelf in the workshop full of luthier books. A couple of these books were written by guys that you could say were a little green compared to Ervin when it comes to guitar making. No way should Ervin price his books at that level of those books. If you overprice it no one will purchase it, from the looks of it people are still purchasing Ervin’s books so he must have done something right. It’s like buying a guitar, you don’t mind paying the premium $’s for a guitar made buy a guitar maker with 30 years experience. You wont pay a premium for a guitar made buy a guy with two years experience. Same applies to books, a lot of us will fork out the dosh for Ervin’s books because he has been in the business for such a long time and has ‘a name’ or recognisable brand in the luthiery community. This is the thing that we underestimate from so many of the excellent experienced builders is their ability to build their name as a brand. There are so few guitar makers in the world that actually make a reasonable living doing this full time, how many guitars builders can you say are actually doing well? (especially here in Australia!?!) Unfortunately the top builders in our game will never earn anything like the money someone at the top of law, medicine, commerce or even education will do.
Why do we baulk at paying this amount for a book from someone with substantial experience? Are we just undervaluing this experience, knowledge and quality again within our community?