7 course Renaissance Lute Build

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:02 pm

Another rib on today....thats 5 down 6 to go.

Behind is the new Dick glue pot that arrived today. I used it on the last rib and I cant say its much better than the leg wax warmer.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:11 pm

Hope that you bought that tape by the case Martin, and got a discount on it.

I woke up last night thinking about this lute and carving the rosette. I'm really keen to see your progress on it. Is a lute soundboard something that you can take out on the rig, and whittle away at in your off duty time?

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:09 pm

Unfortunately Allen working on a top out on the rig is not possible. Getting it out on the chopper in one piece would be a challenge and then fi nding time to work on it would be the next challenge. When rig bound its work, eat and sleep with not much time for anything else.

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:53 pm

Okay the Armadillo is packed away. Five ribs is all Im going to get done as Ive run out of purfling. Anyway the island workbench has been taken over by huge pile of tonewood that came in the other day and I cant be bothered moving it out of the way. The only action that will be happening between now and Sunday when I head off is french polishing on the classical..and we all know how exciting french polishing is dont we?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:05 pm

Gives you some time to contemplate that rosette, being out on the rig. Don't want to take a small square of spruce just to practice on?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:04 pm

kiwigeo wrote:Anyway the island workbench has been taken over by huge pile of tonewood that came in the other day and I cant be bothered moving it out of the way.

Oh Oh, another rainforest near extinction somewhere on the planet

I sense another tonewood supplier on the market once the worlds oil & gas supplies run out and no more trips to the rig.

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:01 pm

The only thing in danger of extinction is me.....will be lucky if I last the next hitch at work. PC and health and safety getting way out of hand in the oil patch and the worse thing...ya cant run anybody off anymore (gotta write them three letters first).

zendo · Post by **zendo** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:23 pm

Allen wrote:Once you get onto using Hide Glue, you'll wonder why you waited do long. I'm using the baby bottle warmer as well, and I can't fault it. Especially for the $5 is cost from Vinnie's.

Looking forward to seeing a few ribs going on.

G'day Allen, Just got my baby's bottle warmer as well. Paid a little more on e-bay. Caused quite a stir with my friends... cheers, Robert

zendo · Post by **zendo** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:25 pm

Kim wrote:The Avanti baby bottle warmers are THE best glue pot on the market. I fooled around with a thermometer and the thermostat control until I got it spot on. I then marked the plastic body of the unit with a hot pin. Now if I knock the control knob I just turn it back to my pin point and it's spot on, the accuracy is brilliant but then it would need to be, after all it is made to heat baby food, imagine the law suits if they were bunky.

Cheers

Kim

Hello Kim, Just got my bottle warmer.. very fancy. What temperature do you use? I'm new to this, making a Baroque Lute so any help would be appreciated. Cheers, Robert

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:33 pm

I've got a dial thermometer sitting in the water jacket whenever I use it just to be safe, but the first marking on the scale keeps the water at 140 - 143 degrees all day long. Close enough for me.

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:09 pm

zendo wrote: Hello Kim, Just got my bottle warmer.. very fancy. What temperature do you use? I'm new to this, making a Baroque Lute so any help would be appreciated. Cheers, Robert

Hi Robert,

Great for the forum to have you join us. Sorry I have not responded sooner but have been away jamm'in with the lads

As Allen suggest 140f is just fine and I stick with this only because 'legend' has it that going above 150 will cause some kind of conversion of the proteins within hide glue lessening it's bond strength. However I suspect the reality is that your standard 'old time' furniture workshop of the 30's which kept the 'never ending' pot of glue bubbling away in the corner and simply added more pearl or water every shift to achieve the correct 'drip from the spoon' did not give any real consideration to anything as technical as a thermometer.

Instead I feel it is more probable that the temperature and consistency of glue was controlled with simple instructions dealt to apprentices along the lines of "If you let that dry out, get too runny, too thick, or boil, you'll be eating that for your lunch 'sunshine', and when you have licked every last bit clean from the pot, you'll get a thick ear for ur sweets boy". Crude yes, but obviously affective as that glue is still holding pieces together today with no sign of letting up.

Cheers

Kim

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:55 am

Hi Robert,

Van Andrews has a section on hide glue at the end of the Renaissance lute tute CD. It should be on the Baroque lute CD as well. If you dont have it let me know and Ill send you a PDF when I get back home (in about two weeks).

Ive been using a temp of around 65-70degC for my glue jobs. I also run a heat gun running on low heat over my joints before glue up to warm up the wood a bit. The glue Im using is the pearl hide glue available from Ubeaut (I think Carbatec stock it)..Im not sure what strength it is but it seems to work ok. Just watch you dont undo any previously glued joints with the gun. Van Andrews instructs to use sellotape for temporarily holding things together...Ive gone to using LMI binding tape as a substitute....its stronger than sellotape and easier to get off. I alaso use map pins in place of the little wooden stops he uses to stop the ribs slipping around the mold.

Another tip. I make up a batch of glue and then pour it into an ice cube tray and let it set. I then store the blocks of hide glue in the fridge until I need them. One cube generally is enough to do a couple of ribs. I put the cube into a small plastic youghurt it and sit that in the water bath. When the glue job is finished I either chuck the tub away or if theres enough left for another job I put it in the fridge.

Cheers Martin

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:19 am

kiwigeo wrote:Another tip. I make up a batch of glue and then pour it into an ice cube tray and let it set. I then store the blocks of hide glue in the fridge until I need them. One cube generally is enough to do a couple of ribs. I put the cube into a small plastic youghurt it and sit that in the water bath. When the glue job is finished I either chuck the tub away or if theres enough left for another job I put it in the fridge.

Cheers Martin

Nice tip Martin

I haven't got to using hide glue yet but that makes excellent sense (as could only come from a geologist! apparently!! as my work colleague tells me of his son who is another Canterbury grad) & a tip I will store away for future reference. Just have to make sure the cubes you drop into your Bourbon (or Whisky

) are clear and not brown!

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:38 pm

Stolen right out of the GAL Big Red Book series

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:45 pm

I'm using the High Clarity glue from Tools for Working Wood. 192 gram strength.

This stuff absorbs water very quickly,(about 5 minutes) so I just make it up when I need it now. One tablespoon glue to 1 1/2 tablespoons of water seems about the correct consistency for most of my work. This way the glue is always fresh, and I don't have to worry that the wife will think that those glue cubes are veal stock and add them to tonight's dinner.

AndyF · Post by **AndyF** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:39 pm

Hi guys, thought this site might be of interest to those of you interested builing instruments with bowls:

http://www.khalafoud.com/Jameel_OudConstruction.htm

Its a photo documentary of someone making an oud. Its a bit of a pain in the butt, as its 14 pages long and you have to scroll back to the top of each page to click on the link to the next page, but its worth it.

matthew · Post by **matthew** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:29 am

Heres a tip from someone who only ever uses hide glue.

Go get the electric spice grinder from the kitchen.
Whizz up half a cup of the pearl glue till like sugar
Sieve it through a fine sieve removing th bigger granules.
Store the ground glue in an airtight jar.

Now when you want some fresh glue, a teaspoon of ground glue, a squirt of water, turn on your heat and five minutes later you're right to go. the glue should run off the brusk like cream.

With a lid on the glue pot (i use small vegemite jars) the glue will happily keep for a few days.

if you make your glue direct from the pearls, you have to let it soak for 20-30 minutes before heating, and you still get lumps.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:18 am

matthew wrote:Go get the electric spice grinder from the kitchen.

Step 2- Extract rolling pin from backside just after wife finds out you've been using her kitchen equipment in your workshop

Thanks for everybodies tips though, all usefull stuff for us hide glue 'virgins' :serg
Martin, your build is becoming educational on many levels

J.F. Custom · Post by **J.F. Custom** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:08 am

Great tip Matthew - that would make it much easier...

My only concern is the assumption that we all have an electric spice grinder in the kitchen!? Am I missing something here - suddenly I feel the kitchen is lacking...

Our electric spice grinder consists of a slab of granite, carved with a smooth inner cavity and a second piece ground cylindrically to fit in the hand just nicely. Sometimes known as a mortar and pestle; electrically powered by my forearm.

Penalty of death should I attempt to use that and that would be a problem 'cause crafting instruments is so much more satisfying, and effective, whilst alive

Looks like I'll have to get another one.

Can't believe we have to wait two weeks for an update now... "Work" can be such a bother.

Jeremy.

Lillian · Post by **Lillian** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:51 am

Jeremy, any chance you could get a coffee grinder or a salt grinder at a second hand store? Not all of them plug in to a socket.

Paul B · Post by **Paul B** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:26 am

I guess you could also use a pepper grinder and a bit of elbow grease.

I wonder what hide glue would make my coffee taste like if I put it through the coffee grinder? Don't think it would do a lot for the aroma.

J.F. Custom · Post by **J.F. Custom** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:36 am

Hey there,

I like your thinking Lillian!

That's perfect - I've got an old coffee grinder and if it's no good, a pepper grinder won't break the budget. Think I even have a mechanism for one lying around somewhere...

Spot on, thanks again.

Mind you, does make one wonder why the stuff is sold in 'pearls' rather than crushed to powder...

Jeremy.

Lillian · Post by **Lillian** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:16 pm

Martin, you are only gone for 2 weeks? Good for you.

Oh, that's right it is a pepper grinder we have the sea salt in.

Pete Brown · Post by **Pete Brown** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:25 pm

I bookmarked a web site a while ago with plans to eventually buy one of the food and bottle warmers a lot of you seem to use for hide glue. It brought a smile to my face when I retrieved the bookmark recently. It's saved as:

Babies Galore - Shop Online for Babies Aged 0 - 2

Sounds like a site Madonna would visit!

zendo · Post by **zendo** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:19 am

kiwigeo wrote:Hi Robert,

Van Andrews has a section on hide glue at the end of the Renaissance lute tute CD. It should be on the Baroque lute CD as well. If you dont have it let me know and Ill send you a PDF when I get back home (in about two weeks).

Ive been using a temp of around 65-70degC for my glue jobs. I also run a heat gun running on low heat over my joints before glue up to warm up the wood a bit. The glue Im using is the pearl hide glue available from Ubeaut (I think Carbatec stock it)..Im not sure what strength it is but it seems to work ok. Just watch you dont undo any previously glued joints with the gun. Van Andrews instructs to use sellotape for temporarily holding things together...Ive gone to using LMI binding tape as a substitute....its stronger than sellotape and easier to get off. I alaso use map pins in place of the little wooden stops he uses to stop the ribs slipping around the mold.

Another tip. I make up a batch of glue and then pour it into an ice cube tray and let it set. I then store the blocks of hide glue in the fridge until I need them. One cube generally is enough to do a couple of ribs. I put the cube into a small plastic youghurt it and sit that in the water bath. When the glue job is finished I either chuck the tub away or if theres enough left for another job I put it in the fridge.

Cheers Martin

Thanks for yet another tip. I looked up the Andrew's glue notes and they will help when I'm at that stage. I have some left over Rabbit Skin Glue from my painting work. I use it sometimes to coat the canvas on a stretcher before applying the undercoat oil paint. Would this glue be suitable? If not I noticed Carbatec had some packets of hide glue. I suppose you are keen to get back to it. Cheers, Robert

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7 course Renaissance Lute Build

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