Where to get black vulcanized paper?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:35 am

Where do you guys source the vulcanized paper that you're using? I've been using veneer dyed black, but would like to try something else. Anywhere in Australia?

Hesh1956 · Post by **Hesh1956** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:52 am

Allen if you can't find an OZ supplier Gurian in the US has it. Since they have some steep mediums I am sure that if you posted on the OLF that you only needed a certain quantity I will bet that someone there would have some to sell directly to you. If I recall Mario uses this for head plates.

Rod True · Post by **Rod True** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:46 pm

Hey Allen,

Bob the zootman sells it.

Try your local electrical distributor and ask for fish paper or vulcanized fish paper.

If you Auzzie guys want to get together an improt some from China, Young Man Insulating Materials might be a good place to go.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:21 pm

Thanks, I'll try the local electrical places. I'll be surprised if they even know what I'm talking about. Cairns might be a small city, but when it comes to anything out of the ordinary, you might as well be at the south pole.

That's a heck of an idea for the head plates. Lots cheaper than ebony.

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:19 pm

Fish paper from China.....sounds downright fishy.

matthew · Post by **matthew** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:18 pm

"vulcanised" paper?

That sounds like it has rubber in it. That so?

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:34 pm

Don't think it has rubber in it Matt. It's either made of wood or cloth fibre.

I've tried everywhere to source it in Australia with no luck.

LMI sell it for $12.15USD per 6" x 36" sheet and we use 4 sheets in a neck. So it's quite expensive.

Bob Cefalu http://www.rctonewoods.com sells it for $6.00USD for the same size and that's about the best price I can find it for.

Might have to find out if we can get it from China. Probably cost bugger all.

Cheers

Bob

Dennis Leahy · Post by **Dennis Leahy** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:49 am

If you can't find it locally...

One of the luthiers on the Luthierforum ordered a while ago from Franklin Fibre. They have a $75 (US) minimum order.

" Vulcanized FRANKLIN Fibreâ„¢ is available in sheet, rod, tubing and roll or coil stock. Standard colors are Red, Gray and Black. FRANKLIN Insulating Paper (Fishpaper) is a special grade of Fibre sheet with superior electrical properties and flexibility."

Dennis

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:26 pm

Another alternative is John Watkins of CNC Guitar parts. But you would have to PM him @ the OLF cause he is still futzing around with his site.

Cheers

Kim

matthew · Post by **matthew** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:24 pm

bob wrote:Don't think it has rubber in it Matt.

Must have rubber in it somewhere, else why would it be "vulcanised" paper?? I suspect it uses vulcanised rubber to bond a matrix of fibres.

If so, I wonder whether long-term deterioration is anything to worry about, or whether since it is glued up in an oxygen free environment, it will last as long as lignin and gelatin anyway ...

matthew · Post by **matthew** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:57 pm

Well ... I can find bugger-all about fishpaper on the internet other than what a good product it is! nothing about its manufacture. So I guess its just another way of keeping organic fibres bound in an organic glue, a kind of artificial wood, anyway. Bother. I wanted to find out how it was made. Useless Internet

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:55 am

Is this any use Matt?

http://www.vulcanizedfibre.com/vulcmake.htm

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:42 am

What thickness are you using Bob? I was going to email China and see if I can get some prices and shipping costs.

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:00 am

We've been using .010" (.25mm) in necks as per the pic below Allen.

I wouldnt mind getting some .060" to use for bindings and headplates.

If you find a supplier I'll jump on board with a group buy. We're just about out and need some more fairly soon.

Cheers

Bob

matthew · Post by **matthew** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:56 am

yeah that's what I was loking for! Interesting.

So the word "vulcanized" is being used in the more general sense of a physical "crosslinking", not true vulcanization which is a sulphur process that crosslinks rubber molecules.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:54 pm

They've got back to me, but as I suspected, English is not their first language.

I've replied with more specific questions and asking them for more details. From what I gather they sell by the kg. and shipped out of Singapore.

Will let you know more when I hear back.

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:25 pm

Might be an idea to keep things simple to start with Allen and just order some .010" and see how things pan out.

My Chinglish aint real flash either.

By the kilogram . Hmm. Even one kilo should be a fair old amount of the stuff.

What uses do you want to put it to? We really only use it for neck laminations so rolls 6" wide would be great. If it comes in wider rolls, so be it.

Postage from Singapore shouldn't be too bad.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:48 am

The response I got this morning tells me that the .01" is sold be the roll at 1000mm wide.

I asked them about black, and what other colors were available. The response was natural (I can only assume this means off white) and yellow.

They also said that they do not make the .06" in black. There web site shows lots of products and I asked specifically about vulcanized fish paper. There is other products that look like this, but its called something else. Also the thicker product is sold by the 1 X 2 meter sheet. Shipping for that might be a bit awkward.

Price quoted was $1.35 US per kilo. I'll try to find out how many meters are in a roll, and how many kilo's it is.

I was thinking that it could be used as the black strip in purflings as well as your applications. If it was available in other colors it could be used to good effect in making multi line purflings. Buying colored veneers gets awfully expensive really quick.

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:04 am

OK. Confession time.

Here's a couple of pics of a Padauk neck that we built some time ago before we had a supply of vulcanised fish paper.

The black strips on either side of the maple are MDF soaked in black stain.

The neck is solid as a rock and hasn't moved in 18 months sonce it was built.

Who needs stinking fish paper anyway.

Bob

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:27 am

Tell us more Bob, how thick was the mdf? Do you think that black veneer would work?

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:32 pm

Vry clvr Bob, wld say mre bt wnt to wedig lst nit nd te POUNDING! frm te keybd is to mch to bare

Cheers (Oh dear

, I mst avod sayng tht fr a wile

)

Km

matthew · Post by **matthew** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:46 pm

Why MDF or fish paper? Why not just wood, dyed black if you want it so?

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:02 pm

Allen the MDF was around .020".

The thickness of the fish paper is .010".

Our sander isn't accurate enough to do that Matthew.

We have considered veneers.

It took an entire can of stain costing $16 to get that MDF totally black plus the time it took to do it doesn't make it viable.

Allens been chasing the fish paper up from the source in China which will make it very cheap.

Unfortunately we have to buy nearly 3/4 of a kilometre of it.

Bob

matthew · Post by **matthew** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:23 pm

To make my black purfling I just soak strips of veneer in a bath of vinegar and steel wool for about a week. Nice and black, all the way through.

you probably know that old trick.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:43 am

Now that you mention it I remember this from an old Fine Woodworking Article. Thanks for the reminder.

Australian/New Zealand Luthiers Forum

Where to get black vulcanized paper?

Where to get black vulcanized paper?

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