The zero fret

[rocket]

Yeah,, the zero fret, seems like a good idea, does what it's supposed to, can't get it wrong, why isn't it used very much in contemporary builds??

Cheers

Rod.

[simso]

Tradition

[kiwigeo]

Suits guitars built in a factory environment where slapping in a zero fret takes less skill than working up a nut.

[blackalex1952]

Zero frets stop the strings from sticking. They are traditionally used in particular on Selmer Maccaferri style guitars and seem to help because of the nature of the silver plated copper wound strings used for both tone and the 670mm scale length. They are mellower than phos bronze or brass and have a "softer" feel.

[Nick]

Suits guitars built in a factory environment where slapping in a zero fret takes less skill than working up a nut.

Probably quite right there Martin, Maccaferri was like the Henry Ford of guitars, his thinking when setting up production at Selmer, was to have as much made by using jigs so that anybody could work that 'station' with minimal training so you could have a non-luthier work force (most were 'borrowed' from the woodwind section of Selmer production) produce the same quality instrument day after day.
Not that he invented the Zero fret of course, but it fitted with his production model where anybody could do it without a period of training or wastage of materials until they 'got it right'.

[Mark McLean]

The last 3 guitars that I have built have had zero frets. The first time that I did it was kind of an accident. I wanted to try a shorter scale length fingerboard, and I had a standard length neck blank, so there was a bit of extra room at the end of the fingerboard and a zero fret was a good way to solve that problem. However, I found that I really liked the way it worked out, and I have become a convert.

It does make the set-up easier as you don't need to fuss so much about the height of each nut slot. But it is not just laziness that makes me use it. It also allows the tuners to pull more smoothly and eliminates strings sticking in the nut. People also claim that there is a more "even" sound as fretted notes can sometimes sound a little bit different to notes on open strings, and this difference is removed when you have a zero fret. Actually, I am not convinced that I hear that difference anyway - but you can be the judge.

The use of zero frets has been more widespread by European and British steel string makers (not only Maccaferri). In the USA there has been a prejudice against the practice because they appeared on poor quality imported instruments, while high end American builders never adopted it. Therefore, zero frets were an instantly recognizable feature of "inferior" instruments. But that is a classic example of association, not causation. If you build a good guitar and use a zero fret, it does not make it inferior. Same with a bolt on neck. Plenty of high end builders are using it now (Fylde, Veilette, some of Nigel Forster's guitars). While it may be true that some factories use them because they are quicker, and more reliably produce a consistent results, that doesn't mean that it is a bad idea.

[old_picker]

A great way to build a neck and not used a lot because of guitarists phobias. IMO it is a better system than a finicky nut

[kiwigeo]

A great way to build a neck and not used a lot because of guitarists phobias. IMO it is a better system than a finicky nut

Not so great when you compensate at the nut. I know some use a compensated zero fret but making one of those must be just as much work as doing up a nut.

[Mark McLean]

I would agree with that Martin. If you want to introduce compensation at the top of the neck you are probably going to do it with a bone nut. I haven't got around to introducing that refinement into my builds yet. For anyone who usually builds with a standard nut, I think the zero fret is a viable option. Then the question arises whether to use the same height fret as all of the others, or a taller one. I think it makes sense to use the same, and it keeps a low but appropriate action. The only reason to think of a higher one would be someone who really attacks the strings hard and is prone to string buzz. Some people have suggested using stainless steel for the zero fret, so it will be harder wearing. I can't see much of a point. I haven't noticed any excessive wear in the zero frets of my builds after a few years of constant use. It would look weird if it was noticeably different from the other ones.

[slowlearner]

I'm no expert, but I've used them on the last few basses and I've really liked them. The big thing is, it's just easier to get the action down lower and consistently so across the neck. You also get rid of that "nut sound" from open strings. I usually install the zero fret after I've leveled and dressed all the rest of the frets. The zero fret is just crowned and polished. It's the same size fret wire, but sits slightly higher.

It can also be a great way to mess with people's heads. This multiscale nut confused the heck out of a heap of people.

[Kamusur]

Having a zero fret doesn't mean toss the nut, in fact it is extra work installing 1 more fret as the strings still need to be separated by way of a nut.

Steve

[Mark McLean]

True. You still need something there to act as a string spacer. Most people install a standard looking nut behind the zero fret, but cut the slots deeper and maybe a bit wider. If you are really worried about how much time it takes to install that extra fret, you will get that time back and more with the simpler nut set up. Since I spend up to a year building one guitar I am not counting those minutes! It also gives you the option to use some other materials or dimensions for the "nut" (aka string spacer) since it doesn't have much influence on durability or sound. I put an ebony nut on one of them because black suited the colour scheme of the woods used.

Pete - that multiscale does make the zero fret look pretty radical!

[Kamusur]

Mark is right Pete that's a damned fine looking bass.

Steve

[slowlearner]

Pete - that multiscale does make the zero fret look pretty radical!

A couple of american guys genuinely thought I'd screwed up the nut...

[rocket]

Well thanks for all those informative replies, beginning as a curiosity having not seen much much on the subject of The zero fret i think i may be a convert, in part anyway, so i'll consider using the zero fret in my next build and see how it goes!

Cheers,

Rod.

[blackalex1952]

The score so far.....Frets 1. Nuts 0.
But in a binary system, both scores are valid.

[old_picker]

Not so great when you compensate at the nut. I know some use a compensated zero fret but making one of those must be just as much work as doing up a nut.

Yep i'd agree on that but I don't accept that compensated nut is necessary to get a sweet sounding electric guitar or bass with saddles that are easily moved.

[blackalex1952]

On Selmer style guitars, one of the main issues is the type of strings that are used.In particular, the G string on the copper plated silver wound strings is the most troublesome...it is usually the first string to suffer from the windings wearing through on frets and from breakages. In fact I have more trouble with the G string on my manouche jazz guitars than Shania Twang has with hers .
The Gypsy Jazz strings are crucial to the sound and playability of those guitars. The other issue, particularly with those strings, is the physical distance between the windings, ie the guage of the winding itself, the finest windings being on the G string. Because G strings have the finest windings, the G strings IMHO are usually the most likely to bind at the nut and the use of a zero fret on the GJ guitars eliminates this issue. On my Fender Strat style guitar, as I don't just play the gypsy jazz music, I use the whammy bar set up where the rear of the sprung bridge is about 1/8" above the guitar body, giving me the ability to raise or lower the pitch with the whammy bar. I can also rest the heel of my hand on the bridge and sort of wiggle my fingers up and down, giving a beautiful vibrato effect. I believe Marl Knoppfler of Dire Straights fame did this. Fender whammy bars work this way-change the pitch of one string and it affects the lot, so there is a technique to tuning them, and when string bending one string and holding one to pitch, the static string drops in pitch as the other string is bent. The bridge gives...so the technique is to do the bend then compensate with the whammy bar or with the aforementioned vibrato with the heel of the hand on the back of the bridge. Doing this constantly with a binding nut is a drama with major musical and practical consequenses. I have used locking nuts and all other sorts of things, which come with their own problems. The best thing I have found is a correctly made nut of high quality and a nut lubricant. To keep things simple I just pencil lead-I am not fussed by the discolouration, some would be. A Strat style guitar would benefit,IMHO,from a zero fret.

[kiwigeo]

Not so great when you compensate at the nut. I know some use a compensated zero fret but making one of those must be just as much work as doing up a nut.

Yep i'd agree on that but I don't accept that compensated nut is necessary to get a sweet sounding electric guitar or bass with saddles that are easily moved.

Ray, a compensated saddle is fine for most of the fretboard but the lower frets will still not be correctly intonated with just a compensated saddle.

[rocket]

I'm looking at using a Zero fret on a current build and am looking for a few pointers as far as nut position,,, how far from the zero? nut slots/ nut height/ how far from the f/b to take the slots, at first the zero fret thing sounds simple but i'm sure there are some pitfalls for the uninitiated!!
Thanks for any info!
Cheers

Rod.

[seeaxe]

Hi Rod

I'm a zero fret fan (but not a fan fret fan ) and remember typing a reply to this thread but as often happens I took too long to finish it and my login timed out and then I couldn't be bothered doing it all again!

Anyway was going to chip in but actually all the info you need is in the discussion above. The only things I would add is that I typically use an electric (narrow) nut about 3 mm past the zf. I cut the slots as normal, but a bit wider and deeper to make sure they allow a good break angle from the zf.

I generally fit the nut before any final fret levelling so the top is flush with the frets. That means if you have to go back and tweak the levelling you don't have to remove the nut. Looks better to me that way too.

It might not be the case for your clients but a lot of people spend a lot of the guitar time in the first position. A zf guitar is (imho) vastly superior to most mass produced non zf guitars.

On the flip side, A really good luthier will make a nut so well that you wouldn't know the difference. Plus you can more easily compensate the nut, but that's uncharted territory for me, haven't found the need so far.

Even my classical has a zf, it's the only classical with one I've seen so far.

Anyways good luck, look forward to hearing your thoughts when you play it.
Cheers
Richard

[seeaxe]

Small correction, I think zf is better in the first position

[blackalex1952]

My take on all of this...If you want to understand how the zero frets evolved and work on archtop guitars, have a look at the European made archtopas and Selmer guitars, where the use was commonplace. Firstly, the nut is made so it will not bind, and the string slots don't have to be custom width for each string. The string height is, logically, controlled by the zero fret height. The zero fret and nut slot height have to give the correct brake angle. There are lots of images and articles on these guitars if you trawl the web, I find the images to be a good source of things like break angles and nut placement. The guitars to look at are Selmer and all the Selmeroids, the German and Italian school of makers and of course, the most interesting, IMHO, Levin. Levin worked for CF Martin or Orville Gibson, from memory, having emigrated in 1887, then started his own guitar making shop in New York, but soon left America and returned to his native country, Sweden. The better Levin archtops IMHO represent great value for a quality old school archtop when compared to the more expensive vintage Gibsons. Because of import restrictions in Europe and distance from the US in the first part of the 20th C, Levin became the most successful archtop builder in Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levin_(guitar_company)
Levin also often used a single cross brace at the same angle as an X braced archtop, and also used lambda bracing, which was like a half X with the "half" X bit functioning a bit like a bass bar to control the bass side of the lower bout. Some D'Angelicos used this type of bracing and there are still famous makers alive in the world who use the same bracing system. The most famous Levin archtop is the one Django borrowed on his US tour from Fred Guy who was with the Duke Ellington Orchestra at the time. That guitar was recently put up for sale in the US for an obscene price just because Django played it. Not all Levins had a zero fret, btw, but there are many European luthiers who used them, Hofner being to most obvious one.
Back to the zero fret, I have seen some guitars with normal width frets, but with a wider zero fret. I have also seen, on the web, a compensated zero fret, but complicated to make.

[Mark McLean]

I'm looking at using a Zero fret on a current build and am looking for a few pointers as far as nut position,,, how far from the zero? nut slots/ nut height/ how far from the f/b to take the slots, at first the zero fret thing sounds simple but i'm sure there are some pitfalls for the uninitiated!!

Rod
My experience is based on only 3 builds - but quite a lot of research on it.
The exact distance between the zero fret and the nut doesn't actually matter. Mine have been around 5-6mm. Selmer Maccaferri plans that I have show it as only 3-4mm. You can see that multiscale bass that Pete made has a gap a mile wide. They all work, and you can vary it according to your desired scale length and the size of your neck blank. I slot the board, place it on the neck so that the correct slot is lined up at the position of the neck-body joint (which has variously been 12th, 13th or 14th on the ones that I have done) and then see where the zero fret falls in relation to the other end of the neck. You can than decide where you want to put the nut.

Cut the zero fret slot exactly like all the others, by whatever method you usually use. It is best to do this on an over-length board, and then cut the end off it where you want the nut to go. If you cut it to length first and then try to cut the zf slot only a few mm from the end it will get tricky.

I was worried about snapping off those last few mm of fingerboard when I hammered in the zero fret. It hasn't actually been a problem, but I have heard of that happening to other people. I butt a block of wood up against the end of the fingerboard as I hammer the zero fret in to place just to be sure the fret doesn't act like a wedge and cause a break. I use the same height wire for the zero fret as for all of the others.

In a zf set-up the nut is simply acting as a string spacer. Therefore it really doesn't matter so much what material you use, or how wide/tall it is. The only critical thing is that the strings need to achieve an adequate break angle over the zf. So the slots that you cut in the nut need to be deeper than the height of the zf. How much deeper - probably doesn't matter. But you want the string to be bearing down on the zf as hard as possible, and not for the nut to be carrying any of the weight.

[rocket]

That's been a great help thanks very much gents!! i'll post some progress pics when i have some.

Cheers

Rod.