Making a Baritone Harp Guitar

[Bob Connor]

Loved all of this thread Dave but I have a question.

Why an orienteering compass?

Are we aligning with magnetic fields when glueing the bridge on?

[Allen]

Secret luthiers business Bob. If you have to ask.....well you know the drill

[Nick]

It's a bit like Mecca Bob, set it up pointing to a secret luthier point on the compass & it will forever sing sweetly. Apparently you have to be in an ancient Celtic luthier society, complete with secret plane grip before being given the co-ordinates One of Dave's secrets for building magical instruments. Not sure if they dance naked around an ancient yew during a solstice or not though

Thanks Dave & trying to get 'back to normal' is all part of the healing process so watching your build is not as insignificant as you may think. Pity I can't get near my shop to emulate it though .

[kiwigeo]

The compass is easily explained. Dave is either:

1. an alien

or

2. he works for the CIA (harp guitar division)

[Dave White]

Do you guys seriously believe that magnetic fields have no impact on an acoustic guitars tone - haven't you seen the Chladni patterns You can lose your way so easily building these things so I think of it as my "Tonal Moral Compass" - plus it's cheaper than Somogyi's books and has a useful magnifying glass in it that lets me see if I've filled the pores and removed the finish cleanly everywhere under the bridge

[Bob Connor]

Aah I see.

I've got one of those Gyro Gearloose headset thingies for that type of malarky.

[Dave White]

Aah I see.

I've got one of those Gyro Gearloose headset thingies for that type of malarky.

Is that the pre-war forward shifted bracing version?

[Dave White]

The bridge is left clamped overnight and then any remaining glue on the bridge is cleaned up. The bridge-plate caul is clamped back on and the remaining bridge pin holes drilled through the top and bridge-plate using a 4mm brad point drill. Then the bridge pin holes are reamed so that the ebony pins fit.



The saddle blanks are fitted and then the next job is to slot the bridge so that the string is locked in place by the unslotted bridge-pins. I use a small jig saw blade and needle files to do this.



The tuners are fitted onto the neck and hollow arm and a bone nut fitted:



Setting up involves fitting main neck strings and cutting the initial nut slots, bringing the strings to pitch, capoing at the first fret and adjusting the truss rod to give the correct neck relief, adjusting the saddle height for desired action at the 12th fret and finally cutting the nut slots to give desired clearance at the nut. Then the sub-bass strings are fitted and the saddle shaped to give a uniform distance from the strings to the top. Here’s the result.



Then today I did some recording – I always like to do this in the first few days after stringing an instrument up as it gives me a benchmark to measure sound changes against later. This is a very new instrument to me and I need time to get to grips with playing it and learning how best to record it so regard this first recording as a “sketch”. I have a medley of two pieces in mind that I want to eventually arrange and play properly “The Snows they Melt the Soonest/Vatersay Bay”. The second tune is a piping tune that Mark Thomson kindly suggested when I asked him for piping tunes in the “McCrimmons’ Lament” idiom. I have the “road map” of an arrangement worked out but the tune is complex in its variations and I need more time for this. The first tune has been recorded in lovely versions by Ann Briggs, Karen Casey and Eliza Carthy and was recently massacred by that other big girl Sting.The tuning is (from lowest sub-bass up):

Db F Ab Eb Bb F Bb Eb Ab Bb

If the main guitar neck was capoed at the 4th fret this would be DADGCD. String gauges are 70,70,70,47,70,42,32,24,20w,17. So here’s my “sketch” of “The Snows they melt the Soonest” recorded using an AKGC1000S microphone with flat EQ and no added effects.

The Snows They Malt the Soonest"

Well did “Fangorn” do what I hoped it would when I set out on this journey? For the first half an hour I wasn’t sure but then he woke up and rumbled. Does the low string on the main neck work better acoustically with the hollow arm – yes. Does it work even better with the sympathetic sub-bass string – yes. Acoustically it rumbles and rocks but as I say I need to experiment with the best way to capture this on a recording. I plan to do three recordings of the same thing – one with the sub-bass strings off and the hollow arm “muffled” (to simulate my normal baritone “Treebeard”) then with the hollow arm “unmuffled” and finally with the sub-bass strings on.

When I’m happy with the feel of the neck I’ll put the Tru-oil finish on it and put a label in and make some Madagascan Rosewood tuner buttons.

[ozziebluesman]

The sound demo is fantastic Dave. About a third of the way into the tune I hear the low pitched bass notes and I can almost feel them resonating. Very piano sounding notes. I bet the whole instrument resonates with viger!

A beautiful instrument mate.

Your post has been a great read from start to finish.

Thanks you for your time an effort to bring us a look and listen to this wonderful instrument.

Cheers

Alan

[Dave White]

Alan - thanks, he's certainly a rumbler

I’m beginning to get the hang of this now. I came up with this arrangement and recorded it today. Tuning is C B Ab Eb Bb F Bb Eb F Bb.

”She’s Leaving Home”

Hearing how well “Fangorn” handles really low sub-bass notes I’m partly regretting not putting on five or six instead of four . . . BUT the intention was to improve the main Baritone acoustic range sound and take advantage of the hollow arm real estate, and with more sub-basses I think that the top would have been driven differently. Also it’s easier for me to play it with only four sub-basses and it makes me very selective about which sub-bass notes to add for each arrangement as there is a tendency to have every note in the armoury and then the pressure is on to use them all.

[Kamusur]

That looks pretty damned good Dave,very nice indeed.

Dave may i please ask you a couple of questions regarding the FBs'. Are they glued into the block/s (6mm holes). Or is it only the bracing woods that retain them that is glued? Epoxy.........? aka 'how is it done'
Any answers will be appreciated thanks Dave

[Dave White]

Kamasur,

The FB rods are glued in using fish glue (I've used epoxy before). The side braces fit into notches made in the reverse kerfed linings with the brace in full contact with the side in between so the fitting procedure goes something like:

Cut the rods slightly long, push fully home into hole in neck block and side brace and see how close the side brace comes to fitting into the slotted linings.

Carefully shorten the rods until the side braces will fit into the lining slots - make sure that the rods are long enough for their ends to be in contact with wood in the neck block and side brace.

Do lots of dry runs to check all is well.

Put glue on rod ends and side braces, insert rods, fit side braces and clamp in place.

[jeffhigh]

That sounding great Dave, I really like your arrangement of "she's leaving home"

[Kamusur]

Thank you Dave for your answering my questions I appreciate that and also apologize for not introducing myself as Steve. (I tried to kick off a thread a while back to get some input for FBs) and keep up the great work......

Steve

[Dave White]

Steve - No problem.

There's a Beatles Covers project going on at an Acoustic Guitar Forum I frequent so here's another one on “Fangorn”, this time in Eb B Ab Eb Bb F Bb Eb F Bb. Forgive the pauses, stutters and stumbles - my brain hasn't quite taught my fingers the arrangement yet

”Strawberry Fields”

Now it's time to finish the neck and put a label in

[charangohabsburg]

Very impressive sound, Dave! Congratulations!

Even not being harp guitar experienced I think this guitar's sound is beyond the sound of "normal" harp guitars. It's just a different league and I like it a lot. It seems to be a great complement to the guitar family. I'm looking forward to your Bass Harp Guitar!

[...]
Hearing how well “Fangorn” handles really low sub-bass notes I’m partly regretting not putting on five or six instead of four . . . BUT the intention was to improve the main Baritone acoustic range sound and take advantage of the hollow arm real estate, and with more sub-basses I think that the top would have been driven differently. [...]

Have you played it without the sub-bass strings put on? How much of the overall timbre might be contributed to the increased body, and how much to the sympathetic strings when not plucking them? I have no idea.

[Dave White]

Markus,

Thanks. I think that the really low baritone sound suits and compliments the "harp guitar" part and particularly for the sort of tunes I've recorded so far on it - the baritone is sometimes described as a "Cello guitar" and these two Beatles tunes fit that. I am planning to do three recordings of the same thing with just the main neck strings and the hollow arm "blocked off" (to simulate my normal harp guitar), then with the hollow arm unblocked and finally with the hollow arm unblocked and the sub-bass strings on. This might give some clues as to how each contributes. I'll do this when the neck is finished and post them here.

I think that a bass harp guitar may a step beyond

[charangohabsburg]

I am planning to do three recordings of the same thing with just the main neck strings and the hollow arm "blocked off" (to simulate my normal harp guitar), then with the hollow arm unblocked and finally with the hollow arm unblocked and the sub-bass strings on. This might give some clues as to how each contributes.

Great!

I think that a bass harp guitar may a step beyond

...and there still would be left the Octobass Harp Guitar!

Edit:
Listen to an Octobass!

[Dave White]

Well I've finally got round to doing the three recordings. The first is with the sub-bass strings off and four micro-fibre cloths stuffed into the hollow arm to block it off:

”Clip1”

Then with the cloths taken out:

”Clip2”

And finalyy with the sub-bass strings added:

”Clip3”

All very unscientific, but I tried to keep levels the same and the microphone in the same relative position.

What do you all think?

[Puff]

Dave I am no scientist or pretender to a great ear. Listened to each once and did not get any great diff between one and two but three, for me, has proved your point. Nice.