Monterey Cypress

[Dave M]

Cupressus macrocarpa or apparently now: Hesperocyparis macrocarpa

A neighbour has just had a big, messy one of these felled, which prompted me to look it up. I see that it is grown a lot in NZ as a 'utility timber'.

Wondered if anyone uses it for instruments?

[Allen]

It's a great timber for instruments. Bends easy, and smells fantastic, and no pores to fill. Every time I build a uke with it I wonder why it isn't used more on them.

[Dave M]

Thanks Allen. I am with you on the pore filing, I like to use maple for my back and sides.

I guess I was also wondering about the obvious question of whether it would make a good flamenco...?

[kiwigeo]

Thanks Allen. I am with you on the pore filing, I like to use maple for my back and sides.

I guess I was also wondering about the obvious question of whether it would make a good flamenco...?

Ive seen one or two flamencos made from Monterey Cypress. Ive got a stash of the stuff in my shop which will one day end up as flamencos

[mooshalah]

Hi Dave.

I'm about to make a flamenco guitar using Monterey Cypress. A few years ago, these trees were chopped down from where they'd been shading a football field for half a century, and I managed to score a few lengths.

I've noted over the years that people do use this for flamenco guitars, but I've never either heard one, nor seen any comments about the quality of sound from such instruments. Because I can't see any reason why it wouldn't make a perfectly competent - if not excellent - instrument, I'm just going to give it a go and see. It's not that the earlier flamenco builders and players in Spain specifically selected Cypress for it's unique acoustic qualities, but rather that it was cheap and easily available.

The approach I'm going to adopt for this instrument is to make everything as light as possible. I'm going to make the soundboard from as stiff a European Spruce as I can find, and thin it to what I consider will be on "the edge of failure' and the braces of Spruce as light as I consider they'll need to be to just hold up against the pull of the strings. I expect (and accept) that such light building might mean that the instrument has a shorter-than-usual life.

In particular, I'm going make the linkage (that is, the linings) between the soundboard and sides as "floppy" as possible, so that there is minimal transmission of vibration from the top to the sides. I'm thus going to make individual "tantellones" - small, individual triangular blocks, rather than a continuous strip of kerfed lining - and space these further apart than the usual kerf gap provided when using a strip - basically, just enough stuff to securely glue the soundboard to the sides.

Because of this (I believe traditional and intentional) approach, I'll make no effort to match any frequencies between back and soundboard. The idea is that the back should be as "passive" as buggery! It's for this reason that I don't see the need to be a purist and consider that only Spanish Cypress (Cupressus sempervirens) can be used. I reckon that Monterey Cypress (C. macrocarpa) which grows in great abundance here in Victoria, will be as good, and with no compromises.

The way I see it, I'm aiming to make a snare-drum-like soundboard, where sounds are as loud and shortly lived as possible (i.e. no sustain), and not have any sound energy "leak" away to the sides and back through a strong soundboard / side (i.e. lining material) connection. Notwithstanding that the attack is rapid, and the decay rapid (to avoid muddying of sound during rapid rasgueo - strumming - or picado - rapid picking - runs), the quality of the sound from the soundboard still needs to be exemplary, so I don't see giving myself any license to ignore other elements of construction (bracing, bridge, neck-joint solidity etc). My view is that the species of Cypress is of a much lower order of consequence than all these other things.

But let's see. Over the next few months, I'll show you mine, if you show me yours!

Frank.

[Bruce McC]

Hi Dave and Frank
the two links below are to previous posts where macrocarpa has been used.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=6723&p=75171&hilit ... nca#p75171


viewtopic.php?f=25&t=6739&p=75173&hilit ... nca#p75173

[kiwigeo]

In particular, I'm going make the linkage (that is, the linings) between the soundboard and sides as "floppy" as possible, so that there is minimal transmission of vibration from the top to the sides. I'm thus going to make individual "tantellones" - small, individual triangular blocks, rather than a continuous strip of kerfed lining - and space these further apart than the usual kerf gap provided when using a strip - basically, just enough stuff to securely glue the soundboard to the sides.

Frank,

If you want reduce leakage of energy from top down the sides then you're best going for linings that are as rigid as possible. On the Gore builds Ive done Ive used laminated solid linings as per Gore's books. Your idea of widely spaced tantellones is going to free up the side/top junction and facilitate vibration of the former. Another option is to increase side rigidity by laminating them. The best scenario would be laminated sides and solid laminated linings.

[kiwigeo]

The way I see it, I'm aiming to make a snare-drum-like soundboard, where sounds are as loud and shortly lived as possible (i.e. no sustain), and not have any sound energy "leak" away to the sides and back through a strong soundboard / side (i.e. lining material) connection. Notwithstanding that the attack is rapid, and the decay rapid (to avoid muddying of sound during rapid rasgueo - strumming - or picado - rapid picking - runs), the quality of the sound from the soundboard still needs to be exemplary, so I don't see giving myself any license to ignore other elements of construction (bracing, bridge, neck-joint solidity etc). My view is that the species of Cypress is of a much lower order of consequence than all these other things.

To minimize sustain also look at your neck wood density.....Spanish Cypress is going to give less sustain than a denser wood such as mahogany. As far as neck joint solidity goes....alot of discussion goes on about different glues and joint types influencing the sound of an instrument...I have yet to be convinced on this one.

[mooshalah]

Hi Martin.

Thanks for your response.

Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear. I most specifically DON'T want any vibration to be transmitted down the sides and to the back. I want it to die at the edges of the soundboard. This certainly isn't energy efficient, in terms of ensuring that all the vibration from the strings gets turned into sustained sound; but that's how one achieves the rapid decay - by suppressing the sustain. Thus, the whole idea is NOT to have rigid linings! The major - perhaps only - function of the sides in the design of such an instrument is to keep everything from collapsing!

Of course, one is building a guitar, and the general principles of guitar construction and sound production need to be adhered to, but the emphases fall in different places when building for flamenco sound production, than for "classical" sound. The differences are more than just the height of the action, whether or not there is a golpeadore (tapping plate), whether the body is made of cypress, or whether the tuning pegs are made of wood. Other subtle differences, like the slightly shallower body depth (to raise the Helmholtz resonance and give the sound an overall more "nasal" sonority) or slightly shorter brace length than for a classical guitar - and most particularly, the importance of suppressing of sustain - are claimed to play a part in imparting the distinctive flamenco clarity and "growl"

With regard to neck wood, I'm happy to use mahogany, and a Spanish heel construction. My reason for doing this is not so much to do with "tradition" as that I want to be bloody sure I can achieve a final low action at the 12th fret, and a gap of around 7.5 - 8 mm between the strings and the body at the bridge. With a solera (working board) and Spanish heel system designed to force the slope of the neck upward by 2mm at the nut, I believe that my own personal internal stress can be relieved!

I'm also making the scale length 660 mm; again, to have the instrument perhaps deliver a bit more volume and punch. (And of course, the "pucker factor" that Robert O'Brien speaks about increases, because of the extra tension on a lightly built soundboard)

Bruce, thanks for your references to earlier discussion about the use of C. macrocarpa. In one, a statement is made that C. macrocarpa is not the "premier Flamenco wood". My point in all of this that perhaps we should not immediately think of "traditional" as being the best. It's most probable that early flamenco guitarists thought that "rosewood is the premier guitar wood" but couldn't afford it. And then there's the opinion of many traditional flamenco guitarists of the past, that "a flamenco guitar is any guitar on which I play flamenco music"

Frank.

[kiwigeo]

Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear. I most specifically DON'T want any vibration to be transmitted down the sides and to the back. I want it to die at the edges of the soundboard. This certainly isn't energy efficient, in terms of ensuring that all the vibration from the strings gets turned into sustained sound; but that's how one achieves the rapid decay - by suppressing the sustain. Thus, the whole idea is NOT to have rigid linings! The major - perhaps only - function of the sides in the design of such an instrument is to keep everything from collapsing!

Um preventing any vibration leaking down the sides was what I was alluding to...perhaps my wording was not clear.

The best way to string energy leakage down the sides is with solid linings and laminated sides. This is the approach taken by Gore and many others in order to ensure maximum conservation of string energy within the top. As I mentioned if you have widely spaced tantellones this is going to free up the top/side area and you're going to soak up string energy driving the sides.

[Andos]

Monterey cypress sounds a lot sexier than macrocarpa. I was wondering if it'd be worth making ukes out off. Cheap easy to work and has nice solid knots for a full figured back board.
Nz's answer to Tassie Blackwood! No holding me back now

[mooshalah]

Hoi Martin (and Dave; I'm concerned that we seem to be hijacking your original simple post. Sorry!)

Yes, you're right and I'm wrong - although it's more a case of me knowing what I meant, rather than what I said! My apologies.

Trying to put things another way, I'm saying that for a flamenco guitar, one is trying to make the side / top interface relatively more "flaccid" than that of the "rigidity" one might seek for a classical guitar. (And I think that the word rigid is something of a misnomer here - high stiffness, rather than immovability is surely the issue.)

For the range of frequencies applicable to the discussion, the more "rigid" the linings and sides, the closer to the edge will be the fundamental (and other) nodes of vibration of the soundboard. Put another way, for infinitely stiff (i.e. "rigid") linings, the reflection of sound back from the edge of the soundboard will be absolute, and nothing will get to into the sides. In this way, there will be no absorption of sound by the sides and the vibration will be kept within the soundboard, and will go for longer (sustain).

For the flamenco guitar, where one wants the vibration to disappear more rapidly, one does indeed want some of the vibration to disappear, and absorbing this into the sides is one strategy to employ. And the absorption is effected by having a "floppy" linkage (bindings) in which the sound will absorb directly, or be passed through into the sides, where it should likewise be non-musically dissipated.

(As an aside, I imagine that where one is attempting to visualize Chladni patterns on flamenco guitars built using this principle, the node lines nearest the edge of the soundboard will be noticeably more distant from the edge, than for classical guitars, where the edge - lining - is designed to be more rigid / stiffer.)

Regardless of how badly I'm expressing myself, for a flamenco guitar, the linings need to not impart much rigidity / stiffness, and a way to achieve this is to use tantellones spaced with gaps between them.

Have I in any way redeemed myself, or have I painted myself more deeply into a corner??

Frank.

[Bruce McC]

Hi Andos

some progress pics of a baritone uke using Georgia Luthier Supply plans.
Macro top back and sides with jarrah bindings. Pity about the knots in
the macro over there, over here ours is straight grained and knot free.
Got mine from Pete at Curly Timbers.

Macro uke1.jpg (189.33 KiB) Viewed 30178 times

Macro uke2.jpg (186.14 KiB) Viewed 30178 times

[kiwigeo]

Have I in any way redeemed myself, or have I painted myself more deeply into a corner??

Frank.

I sort of understand what you're talking about. Trevor talks about the flamenco "sound" in his book...worth a read IMHO.

[hillbillybass]

Hi Dave,

I'm interested in Monterey Cypress myself. I see the trees all the time where I live and I'm curious if anyone has ever used it for a soundboard. I'm considering giving it a go for a soundboard for a double bass.

I noticed yesterday that some large trees have been cut down at one of the local football ovals and there's some decent sized logs among them.

[Dave M]

Well that answered the question! Thanks for the links Bruce - I should have checked.

I hadn't realised the timber was regarded as quite so lowly. Floorboard guitar sounds terrible! I thought the aesthetic was really quite appropriate for a Flamenco. The cypress used by the Spanish builders also looks pretty plain.

The next step is to go round and see if there any big bits of trunk that might just be worth trying to saw and dry.

And Frank no worries about veering off the thread. These things are important and always worth trying to get sorted.

[jeffhigh]

I think the floorboard cyprus is a different species to Monterey. Native to inland areas, small and quite knotty but hard enough to take the wear

I would not like to use Monterey on a floor it is quite soft.

I have done a flamenco with it, worked well.

[Andos]

That's a nice wee uke there Bruce. I like it a lot, definitely worth a trip up to the local mac sawmill.
Most macs are grown as individual trees or in single rows out here. That let's them branch sideways into gnarly old bastards. So we get big tight knots and plenty of figure. I've got a few unimportant projects to get out the way - like the guttering and painting the bathroom and then I'll hunt down a couple of short planks. One straight grained for the sides and the other with a nice big knot for a one piece back.

[curly]

I did a shared job in macro last summer where we bought in about 80 tons , 3 semi trailer loads . There were some of the best logs I have seen in the species , some 8 metre dead clear logs . My interest in the job was mostly home wood for my own house and yard building though I've gotten out planking stock for a Rangley row boat and a good many perfectly clear quarter sawn musical blocks for resaw , even some figured stock ! I have cut a larger order for a local flamenco builder off the stack too .
Pete
Curly timbers