What to do?

[peter.coombe]

I am seeking comments on what to do about this situation.

Just after Christmas last year I finished a new guitar with Adi top and Indian Rosewood back. Stunning nice guitar, best sounding I have made so far. The few guitar players I have showed it to have all said "wow", so must be pretty good. I had a big smile on my face when it was finished. It was specifically made to take pride of place at my stall at Port Fairy and the National Folk Festival. Around 3 weeks ago I loaned it to a good friend and customer of mine to make a recording I could put on my web page. The idea was he would play guitar duets with his son (also really good guitar player) and record two of my guitars. Great idea at the time. I have known this bloke for probably around 25 years, have loaned him instruments before and they all have come back pristine, so had no concerns. He runs a local folk club so gets to see a lot of other musicians and does show my instruments around quite a bit so is good advertising. Problem is, his son got hold of the guitar and it looks like he dropped it. We still don't know exactly what happened. My friend is livid with his son because he said nothing and racked off with his girlfriend and is not answering phone calls nor SMS messages. He is old enough to know better (21yo) so he is in deep doo doo when he gets back home. There is a picture of the guitar below, the nice rosewood back, and 3 pictures of the major ding. There are other minor dings that indicate to me that he dropped it. I am trying not to be upset, but it is hard.

Anyway, there is no way I can repair this and make it invisible without replacing the top, and there is not enough time for that, and I don't want to risk changing the sound. Best I can do is to get some hide glue in the small crack. Anything else and I risk making it look worse. Fortunately it is in the back part of the lower bout on the bass not far off the edge, so is not structural, and not obvious. My thinking at the moment is to glue the crack and offer the guitar at a discount and chalk it up to advertising costs. My friend's son is a typical 21yo, no money. All his money goes on girls, cars and alcohol, in that order, so the chances of him paying for the damage is somewhere between buckleys and none.

Worse - I don't have any recording of the guitar. Apparently the son couldn't get the software working on his computer.

Just let me vent now - AAAAHHHHHHGGGGG!!!! AAAAHHHHHHHHHGGGGG!!!

Peter

[kiwigeo]

My friend's son is a typical 21yo, no money. All his money goes on girls, cars and alcohol, in that order, so the chances of him paying for the damage is somewhere between buckleys and none.

If he can afford girls, cars and alcohol then he can afford to pay for the damage....time for the guy to man up.

BTA.....that's a nice looking instrument Peter.

[peter.coombe]

Yes well that is all well and good in theory, the problem is in the implementation. Actually I was probably a bit harsh on the lad in the heat of the moment. His father told me last night he doesn't drink much, but does spend a lot of money on music, so I can forgive him for that. I should have put music a close second after girlfriend. I actually got to know him quite well around 4 years ago, and this seems to be quite out of character. He made a resonator guitar in my workshop for his year 12 project that turned out rather nicely and he won a prize for it. I suspect he showed a mate the guitar and the mate is one who actually dropped it, but we won't know for sure until after he comes back home.

[Nick]

What sort of finish is on it Peter? I could suggest a little steam to get the worst out (but no good if it's Shellac of course) then onto my favourite ding treatment learnt from Dan Erlewine. If you cant steam out then you can get straight into the drop fill

youtu.be/

[peter.coombe]

It is Target Coatings EM2000 which is a water based alkyd varnish. There is shellac under the varnish.

[charangohabsburg]

As Nick says, steam is your friend. An invisible or nearly invisible repair should be possible.

I haven't seen Dan Erlewine's video - but what I do, have done quite a few times, and worked always on tops varnished with different known and unknown methods (including shellac), is using a white rather wet but not dripping wet, white cotton rag (fold twice => four layers), a soldering iron and patience.

The trick is to steam out a dent in several sessions, not at once, and not more than two or three sessions a day, but also not waiting more than a day between sessions.

Make sure the area is absolutely clean every time you start steaming, and while steaming never get past the point of seeing and hearing quite a lot of steam. When steam starts to diminish this means things are getting hotter and the possibility of colour changes raises exponentially as the temperature gets higher.

If you never have done this before (as it seems), practice first on scrap until achieving a perfect result (if you have the time, varnish the scrap first for gaining confidence for doing the real thing). It normally takes me at least three days (5 - 8 sessions) until getting there with a dent that deep. Within a session, apply the (re-wetted) rag and soldering iron three or max. 4 times at the same spot before moving to the adjacent spot.

After letting dry completely touch up the varnish, or if turns out to be impossible to blend the cracked varnish, of course re-varnish, I have no idea how your lacquer works.

My friend's son is a typical 21yo, no money. [...] so the chances of him paying for the damage is somewhere between buckleys and none.

I suspect he showed a mate the guitar and the mate is one who actually dropped it, but we won't know for sure until after he comes back home.

Now these things may be a problem between your friend and his son, but they are definitely is not your problem! There even may be a liability insurance covering the monetary damage.

[Hard Road]

That looks quite repairable as stated above, looks like something has fallen onto to the top rather than the guitar dropped. I would chalk it up to "Sh#t Happens!" In the scheme of things, guitars are a dime a dozen compared to lost friendships, which is where it would inevitability head if you pursued any money reimbursement, get him to work it off sanding I have had loaned guitars come back scratched and dented before, but I knew that was a possibility before they left and i had resigned myself to the fact that would most likely happen.

[peter.coombe]

Thanks guys. I have steamed out plenty of dents before, and also repaired chips in hard finishes like in the video, but have never steamed out a dent under this varnish. What ever happened, it was a fairly heavy blow because it split the Spruce. Maybe he knocked over a microphone stand. I think Segovia did something like that to his famous Houser.

Peter

[Trevor Gore]

That's a tough one, Peter, but you're getting good advice.

I've done numerous of those types of repairs. The degree of difficulty depends largely on how the finish responds to the heat and damp, but I've never used that finish - just shellac and nitro, which are pretty well behaved once you know how they respond.

Whatever else you do, make sure you cleat the crack. They often extend further than you can see and you will see evidence of that down the track as the guitar responds to what would usually be regarded as normal temp and humidity swings.

[kiwigeo]

.... get him to work it off sanding

Yeah...hand him a huge block of ebony and some 400 grit wet and dry paper and tell him not to stop until the block is reduced to dust.

[peter.coombe]

I have started the finishing process on a scrap of Adi Spruce. I will deliberately dent it and see how it responds to heat and steam before touching the guitar.

Just spoke to my friend. I was right. One of his son's mates did the damage so the lad is (mostly) innocent. He doesn't know exactly what happened because his mate is not telling, but most likely it was in the case with the lid open and his mate dropped something on it. Gave him some advice on guitar care to drum into his son - always put it in the case when not being played, close the lid and close at least one catch on the case. Learned from long experience with mandolins. Anyway, my friend has offered to pay for the guitar since it was under his responsibility when the accident happened. He loves the guitar, so that is good. I think I will try the fix first before making any decision. Is a bit hectic here now, I am trying to finish a tenor guitar before we leave for Port Fairy, another guitar is about to come in for repair and this hassle is the last thing I need.

[peter.coombe]

Well I'm not touching any guitar today. Just dropped what is probably my best piece of Tiger Myrtle on the concrete floor and smashed it. Don't they say bad things happen in 3's. I am waiting for the 3rd to happen.

Peter

[vandenboom]

That's a tough one, Peter, but you're getting good advice.

I've done numerous of those types of repairs. The degree of difficulty depends largely on how the finish responds to the heat and damp, but I've never used that finish - just shellac and nitro, which are pretty well behaved once you know how they respond.

Whatever else you do, make sure you cleat the crack. They often extend further than you can see and you will see evidence of that down the track as the guitar responds to what would usually be regarded as normal temp and humidity swings.

I have a similar dent and crack (about 9cm) to fix that I posted on 2 weeks ago. So this thread is so helpful. A couple of questions...
(1) Should I glue and cleat the crack before steaming out the dent or vice versa. Or doesn't it matter.
In trying to think it through, I thought that if I glue and cleated it first that the steaming process might compromise the glued crack.
On the other hand, if I steamed the dent out first, the steam might close the crack up a bit more which would be a good thing before gluing and cleating it.
(2) Which glue to use for the crack. I would have thought that supa glue is the only option that will wick.
(3) This crack is in the lower bout on the treble side, so no brace there other than x-brace. In cleating the crack underneath, I presume I should put in 2 or 3 small 12mm square, 2mm thick spruce patches. Does that sound right? I get Trevor's point about these cracks probably running further than you can observe. I will be doing a full re-finish on this top.

Thanks. Frank.

[Trevor Gore]

I suspect others have their own way of doing this, and the guys who spend most of there time on repairs (I'm much more focused on build) will certainly be worth listening to, but this is how I do it:

1) I steam out first and this tends to re-humidify, at least locally, whether you want to or not
2) I use Titebond Original. It can be worked in from both sides (if you can reach the inside) by flexing the split. Good liquid hide or fish glue may work as well, but I've never tried them. I do want a bit of open time, though. I've tried CA, but found it more work due to the way it reacts with the finishes I use
3) I have no formula regarding cleats, because there is so often something in the way. I have done continuous cleats over the whole crack and individual ones with ~5mm gaps between. I try to make them as thin as I can, so probably closer to 1mm than 2mm. I run the grain of the cleat at a shallow angle to the grain of the top. Perhaps the most critical thing is to make sure they don't curl when you apply glue. I frequently use neodymium magnets to clamp/level things.

There is a difference between impact splits and over-dry splits. If you didn't build the guitar you don't know what humidity it was built at. Therefore it may make more sense to splint an over-dry split, because if you don't, next time it gets dry, it will likely split at the weakest point, i.e the place it did last time, which, according to the owner, you didn't repair properly!

[peter.coombe]

Thanks for all the great advice. I am just waiting for the varnish on the test piece to cure at the moment. The ding is right down the bottom end of the guitar and I doubt I will be able to get my hand far enough down through the sound hole to reach it which makes it tricky. How do you handle that situation?

Peter

[inoz]

Hi Peter,

If it was me, I'd bitch 'n moan, then fix it as best I could, but resign myself to it being a demo guitar to let people try at the festival.
I'd rationalize that people will probably scratch it up some when trying it out anyway, you've got a story of woe to tell them/engage them about it, you may sell it as a used "show special" at a reduced price, and at the very least, if it sounds so good it'll be good advertising of your sound.

[peter.coombe]

If it was me, I'd bitch 'n moan, then fix it as best I could, but resign myself to it being a demo guitar to let people try at the festival.
I'd rationalize that people will probably scratch it up some when trying it out anyway, you've got a story of woe to tell them/engage them about it, you may sell it as a used "show special" at a reduced price, and at the very least, if it sounds so good it'll be good advertising of your sound.

That is pretty much what I was intending to do. I have bitched and moaned enough already, time to move on.

Peter

[charangohabsburg]

The ding is right down the bottom end of the guitar and I doubt I will be able to get my hand far enough down through the sound hole to reach it which makes it tricky. How do you handle that situation?

I place "out-of-reach cleats" with a clamp of the right length whose outer arm tip indicates the exact position of the inner arm tip, hence the cleat which I stick with a double-sided tape to the inner clamp tip (I rub a bit of dust to the cleat-side of the tape until it only just will hold the cleat but clearly will release it, instead of releasing the clamp and keep stuck to the cleat when the job is done).

Most probably you will have to make such a clamp. The outer arm should be removable or the vertical bar at least "long enough", which helps to get the clamp without major problems through the soundhole in position. Then, before the cleat touches the top, lower the outer arm until its tip touches the spot outside the guitar where the cleat should land on inside, then lift the inner arm / bar assembly and tighten the clamp.

While I use hot hide glue for cracks, for obvious reasons I prefer Titebond for cleats when using this technique. Although I have repaired "unreachable cracks" of more than a dozen instruments (normally on charangos where I sometimes don't even can get a finger through the soundhole, but also on a couple of Mexican guitarrones which are huge) I still do each time a couple of dry runs before I put a drop of glue on the cleat, and I check with a mirror how things look inside during the dry runs, and a few seconds after finally tightening down the clamp, just in case (although I would not be too confident regarding releasing the once glued on cleat without another long-reach tool).

Oh, and regarding selling off this one: just say it was Tommy Emmanuel who dinged it, and charge a multiple of your normal price.

[Bob Connor]

I've just purchased one of these from Stewmac Peter.

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I can bring it to Port Fairy if you'd like to borrow it.

Regards

[vandenboom]

This is the cracked top I was referring to earlier and which I raised in a separate post a couple of weeks ago.

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I have considered the various approaches discussed above.
I tried Trevor's approach but cannot get enough up/down movement either side of the crack to get some titebond in there. There's a tonebar under it which is largely responsible for that.
I am also concerned that the appearance of a noticeable thin black line is an indication that it has been like this for a while and so crap has got into the crack. Possibly not a good surface to run CA into and the black line is likely to be visible under the new finish.
So now I'm thinking I need to go down the splice path that Bob first suggested. I have matching sitka for the repair.

For those who have done this before, how would you go about it?
I thought a dremel with a an inlay bit (1/32") would be the way to cut the slot. However, I want to follow the grain line that the crack follows which is not completely straight. But I'm not too excited about doing it freehand with a sharp blade either.
As usual, grateful for your ideas.
thanks. Frank.

[charangohabsburg]

[...] but cannot get enough up/down movement either side of the crack to get some titebond in there. [...]

For those who have done this before, how would you go about it?

Use hot hide glue instead.

[peter.coombe]

I have done the repair. The minor dings are now invisible and the big ding is almost invisible. Thanks for all the advice. I could not make the big ding invisible because the split is still visible and what ever hit the guitar left behind some pigment. The hit went right through the varnish to bare wood and looks like some paint got imbedded into the wood. I scraped most of it out, but could not get it all off. Learned a few things about the varnish I did not know, all good. Is easy to repair.

This is what I did. Steamed out the dents with a wet cloth and soldering iron. Left it to dry. Once dry glued the crack with hot hide glue. Then glued a cleat underneath. Fortunately I could get my hand under the crack (only just). For that I used some of the last of my LMI white glue (now no longer available). This glue is like hide glue in that you can do rub joints, so I don't need Bob's real neat clamp. Fine sand with 2000 wet/dry. Drop fill with varnish, fine sand to level. The varnish can be wiped on, and I found that wiping on with a soft tissue seemed to work best, so what followed was a few hours of wipe varnish, fine sand, then repeat. Finally left to dry and buff with micromesh.

My friend dropped in on his way to Cobago folk festival yesterday and could not believe how well the dings had disappeared. I expect that I am the only person who can see it unless specifically pointed out. Success.

[peter.coombe]

Well I'm not touching any guitar today. Just dropped what is probably my best piece of Tiger Myrtle on the concrete floor and smashed it. Don't they say bad things happen in 3's. I am waiting for the 3rd to happen.

I was right. Bad things do happen in three's. Over the weekend I realised I forgot to get a ticket for Port Fairy for the better half. We leave tomorrow. Now I am in the dog house in deep doo doo. Woof Woof.

Peter

[Nick]

I was right. Bad things do happen in three's. Over the weekend I realised I forgot to get a ticket for Port Fairy for the better half. We leave tomorrow. Now I am in the dog house in deep doo doo. Woof Woof.

Peter

Ouch! You have my sympathy's Pete. That'll cost you an expensive meal (probably twice as much as a ticket would of)

[vandenboom]

The ding is right down the bottom end of the guitar and I doubt I will be able to get my hand far enough down through the sound hole to reach it which makes it tricky. How do you handle that situation?

I place "out-of-reach cleats" with a clamp of the right length whose outer arm tip indicates the exact position of the inner arm tip, hence the cleat which I stick with a double-sided tape to the inner clamp tip (I rub a bit of dust to the cleat-side of the tape until it only just will hold the cleat but clearly will release it, instead of releasing the clamp and keep stuck to the cleat when the job is done).

Most probably you will have to make such a clamp. The outer arm should be removable or the vertical bar at least "long enough", which helps to get the clamp without major problems through the soundhole in position. Then, before the cleat touches the top, lower the outer arm until its tip touches the spot outside the guitar where the cleat should land on inside, then lift the inner arm / bar assembly and tighten the clamp.

While I use hot hide glue for cracks, for obvious reasons I prefer Titebond for cleats when using this technique. Although I have repaired "unreachable cracks" of more than a dozen instruments (normally on charangos where I sometimes don't even can get a finger through the soundhole, but also on a couple of Mexican guitarrones which are huge) I still do each time a couple of dry runs before I put a drop of glue on the cleat, and I check with a mirror how things look inside during the dry runs, and a few seconds after finally tightening down the clamp, just in case (although I would not be too confident regarding releasing the once glued on cleat without another long-reach tool).

Oh, and regarding selling off this one: just say it was Tommy Emmanuel who dinged it, and charge a multiple of your normal price.

Thank you Markus. Very quick to make something up and it worked like a treat.
Frank

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