Hide Glue...Myths or Magical?

[nnickusa]

I've been reading a few of the threads over on the AGF lately, and seem to notice a real bias in favour of Hide Glue being one of the key determinants in the sound a given guitar produces.

One thing I notice here(builders more than players) is that the rabid facination and defense of the vital role glue plays seems to be, well, less.....

Does HHG have any significant contribution to improvement of the sound of a guitar, and if so, is it enough to justify its use over, say titebond and fish glue? Both of which I am using for various tasks at the moment.

I guess I'm asking if there is any real reason to look into a HHG setup.....

[Kim]

Does HHG have any significant contribution to improvement of the sound of a guitar

Probably not Nick but it's just excellent glue.. Fast tacking, very strong, reversible, re-clampable with just a bit of heat from an air gun and very, very easy clean-up of squeeze-out.

What's not to like and what's to set-up?? Glue + water + 2nd hand baby bottle warmer and your good to go.

Cheers

Kim

[simso]

I use hide glue and titebond every day.

No, I dont think it adds to the sound,

Hide glue is harder to work with, but when you know how to work with it, manufacturing / repairs can be carried out so much quicker

Structurally hide glue is sometimes better, it doesnt creep when under load, titebond with excessive loads will creep

Titebond is very convenient to work with if time is not an issue

[nnickusa]

Hmmm. Might look into it.

Jeez, the carry on some blokes get up to over there is astonishing. You would think that the most minor things are the most significant....Kinda boggles the mind to read some of the shit that lands on the screen.....

[ozziebluesman]

G'day Nick,

I started out using HHG for everything inside the box for my first six builds. After a number of builds now I can't tell any sound difference between Titebond and HHG. I do however us HHG to glue down the bridge and the fingerboard to the top. After working on a few restorations of some older instruments recently that where built using HHG they where a breeze to take apart. I have also used HHG for gluing in bindings as it tacks fast and is a good choice for that job.

My two bobs worth.

Cheers

Alan

[Kamusur]

Hmmm. Might look into it.

Jeez, the carry on some blokes get up to over there is astonishing. You would think that the most minor things are the most significant....Kinda boggles the mind to read some of the shit that lands on the screen.....

There's a load of it to sift through sometimes Nick that's for sure.

Steve

[DarwinStrings]

You would think that given the glues role in the build that there is a lot more important choices to make other than the glue you use when it comes to sound.

There is some good stuff on that forum though and all sorts not just makers, there's players, repairer/restorers, hobbyists, pros, beginners and old hands. Some beautiful instruments too but what sort of surprised me was the build threads that are not posted by builders.

Jim

[Allen]

Taking out any consideration of whether the instrument sounds better, the benefits are stacked so heavily in the favour of HHG that I simply do not understand why it isn't everyones first glue to reach for.

1. It's dead easy to use.
2. It's very inexpensive
3. Easy to repair
4. Easy to clean up
5. Invisible under finish
6. Doesn't clog sanding belts
7. Makes for invisible glue joints
8. Doesn't cold creep
9. Has a track record going back 4000 years
10. People pay more for you using it.
11. It's shelf life dry is extraordinarily long.

I build with HHG exclusively except for Epoxy for CF truss rods and CA glue for some inlay and wicking into fret slot ends. Same goes for my students, whom no one has told that HHG is suppose to be difficult to use. They don't have any problems. So as far as I can tell, it's difficulty is one of those myths that just seems to have taken hold in some peoples minds.

If you are serious about building instruments, then just go out and buy a proper glue pot. It's certainly not the most expensive tool you will ever buy, and they make using it so much easier than baby bottle warmers. You will have a large water reservoir, and the thermal mass of a heavy copper liner.

[liam_fnq]

12. It doesn't come from a chemical factory.
13. I washes out of your clothes so you can happily wear your Hugo Boss suit in the workshop without worrying that the other hot shots at the stock brokerage will have the leverage to make you buy the lattes on Mon morning.

[charangohabsburg]

Hide glue and sound? Oh yes, it can improve the sound of the luthier!

[nnickusa]

Well said, Markus.

[kiwigeo]

14. it's the most efficient way to recycle race horses

[charangohabsburg]

Wouldn't race horse hide glue be too runny?

[woodrat]

Wouldn't race horse hide glue be too runny?

Oh Markus.....You are so....Funny! (to be rhymed like Andre the Giant in the Princess Bride)

[Kim]

If you are serious about building instruments, then just go out and buy a proper glue pot. It's certainly not the most expensive tool you will ever buy, and they make using it so much easier than baby bottle warmers. You will have a large water reservoir, and the thermal mass of a heavy copper liner.

Plenty of really good builders using an Avent baby bottle warmer to heat their hide glue Allen. They're very accurate because their intended purpose demands they are and if only building 1 or 2 guitars at a time, hold plenty enough water to maintain stable glue temperature in a small application bottle and also a dip reservoir when required. There smaller capacity also means they heat quite quickly and have the glue ready to go in next to no time and have a small overall footprint so take next to no room in the workshop when not in use....Best of all, if you look around you should be able to pick one up in great condition for around $10...even your local Cashies will probably have one sitting on the shelf for around $20 but if anyone interested looks in Gumtree they will most likely find one for sale in their own suburb.

E.G. I just checked QLD and here's one @ Coolum Beach, brand new in the box... $10....nursing mothers should note that this won't last if there's any guitar builders near by

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/coolum-b ... 1026167344

For Nick..here's a HHG post I made some time back to address some of the BS out there that can make it all sound too hard...its not..and yes, that bridge is holding up just fine thanks.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2557

Cheers

Kim

[nnickusa]

Thanks to all you guys. I'll put it on the list of things to do. As of now, I like the fish glue. Seems to have most of what HHG does, without the heating....

Just as a side note, I was just now reading a thread on the AGF that discusses a Taylor 314.

An absolute stunner. All the respondents agree that the guitar seems to be "wet" and that it needs "drying out", a "neck re-set", saddle replacement, etc, etc.....
HEY. THIS IS A BRAND NEW GUITAR......

Just as a thought how many of you guys have had customers that would be accepting of the need fo a re-set of the neck on a guitar theyJUST NOW BOUGHT FROM YOU! Seems to be perfectly acceptable from Taylor..... Holy........

[charangohabsburg]

Just as a side note, I was just now reading a thread on the AGF that discusses a Taylor 314.

An absolute stunner. All the respondents agree that the guitar seems to be "wet" and that it needs "drying out",

There are special kilns available for guitars like the described one:

Kiln for wet guitars

Kiln_for_guitars.jpg (38.73 KiB) Viewed 21884 times

[simso]

Just as a side note, I was just now reading a thread on the AGF that discusses a Taylor 314.

An absolute stunner. All the respondents agree that the guitar seems to be "wet" and that it needs "drying out", a "neck re-set", saddle replacement, etc, etc.....
HEY. THIS IS A BRAND NEW GUITAR......

Just as a thought how many of you guys have had customers that would be accepting of the need fo a re-set of the neck on a guitar theyJUST NOW BOUGHT FROM YOU! Seems to be perfectly acceptable from Taylor..... Holy........

Just as a side note dont always believe what people post, I dont know of the post your referring too, but I will as a Taylor Warranty repairer respond to your concerns. also as a side note, we are pretty much every other manufactruers warranty repairers as well.

A neck reset is covered under warranty by taylor, it takes approximatley 15 minutes to do a neck reset, taylors saddles are pretty good, and they use Uv for there paint which is top of the line, I highly suspect without seeing the post, someone at the store has tampered with the guitar prior to the customer getting it, we had the same happen with a 910 series taylor, it was a dog, but we found by tracing back to the store that owned it, there repair tech used it for personal use and modified it to suit his playing style, they thought they could repair, they could not. It was the worst playing guitar we had seen, after fitting factory saddle and nut back in place it was pretty well perfect, the customer was over joyed with the responsinmess that had returned

[nnickusa]

Hey Steve,
I'm not actually commenting on the Taylors. As I understand it, they are as good as any factory guitars, and often better due to the innovations that have been used, particularly for neck attachment.

I haven't ever tried one, but have friends who love them.

Moreso, I wonder why anyone would leave a shop with a guitar that played like a dog, and then post about it. It seems that I wasn't the only one. As the thread progressed most respondants posited the same question. The guy took it back....

[Kim]

I have not looked at the thread in question but I'm with Steve, I reckon it's 'highly' unlikely the guitar in question had been built with wet wood and I say this because the very foundation of Bob Taylor's business model has always been, consistency of materials and in process will deliver consistency in product to his customers.

Prior to setting up his factory, Bob Taylor had identified that 'consistency' had been virtually non-existent in the acoustic guitar market and that shelling out >$3500 for a made in USA acoustic guitar was pretty much a hit and miss affair for consumers. Bob Taylor had also identified that if he was to get a foot hold in a market that was shared almost exclusively at that time between Martin and Gibson Guitars, that he would need to invest heavily in R&D of process to come up with the innovations that would provide that consistency and that is why, more so than any other brand IMO, a Taylor guitar sounds like a Taylor Guitar..Failing the odd unpredictable, when you pick up a Taylor guitar they sound pretty good 'all of the time'.

My guess would be that at some stage between distributor and retailer, the guitar in question may have been left exposed to the elements. (Top of stack sitting on a tail lift while truckie has lunch?? It happens) The cardboard box got wet, and when moved in doors, the box may have been re-stacked on the bottom where moisture transfer took place over an extended period..just speculation of course but to my mind it is far more plausible than the idea that Bob Taylor would risk all of his hard earned branding clout by building anything but a paddle pop with wet wood.

Cheers

Kim

[DarwinStrings]

A bit off topic Nick but as Taylor has been mentioned, does anyone else find it a bit rude that a company can patent a bolt on neck that uses shims to adjust it (bit like a Tele really)? Does that mean that technically I can't sell a guitar I make that has a bolt on neck that uses shims to adjust it? Hmmmm.


Jim

[charangohabsburg]

I have not looked at the thread in question but I'm with Steve, I reckon it's 'highly' unlikely the guitar in question had been built with wet wood
[...]
My guess would be that at some stage between distributor and retailer, the guitar in question may have been left exposed to the elements. [...]

I would go one step further and say (also without having seen that thread) that a guitar player or any other person can not determine MC of wood without using some more or less sophisticated technical equipment. Hey, these are the sort people who claim also to hear a difference between guitars glued up with different types of glue, so why should the not "feel" MC? Of course, they can't but this should not stop us to tell them to get rid of a guitar they bought (preferably destroy it to not clog up the market) and get the next one. This is what keeps economy rolling. No harm is done to guitar builders or brands by those esoteric judgements of misled guitar owners, they just have to walk the long road of buying an incredible number of guitars of all kinds of manufacture.