Calling all Adelaide Luthiers

[matthew]

^ a good and marketable suggestion!

or how about designing a removable top or back guitar that is acoustically sound and buzz free under normal use but can be easily opened for luthiers to fiddle with bracing patterns and thicknesses etc?

fun, but not so marketable!

[Trevor Gore]

Lando, As you can see, asking the right question is harder than finding the right answer.

Anyway, it's never too early to start reading, as there is a lot more out there than many people realise, as not too many guitar makers roam the archives of the Acoustical Society of America, Acustica, Applied Acoustics, etc. etc.

If you're of a technical bent, Howard Wright's PhD thesis, available (for free) from here: http://www.hakwright.co.uk/thesis.html is not a bad place to start and it has a very good list of references to pursue if you choose. And if you are thinking of building with wood, this paper, downloadable from here, http://www.goreguitars.com.au/main/page ... nical.html will give you some idea of what you're up against.

Give it a good go!

[Nick]

Nobody is offended here Lando & we aren't trying to be negative, most here are just coming from a background of having tried different things already, some worked but most are sitting in a corner collecting dust. I'd be the first to jump boots and all into a project that steps outside the well established box. But acoustic instruments need to fit within a certain set of established acoustical properties in order to produce an 'acceptable' acoustic sound. A read of Trevor & Gerrard's books (especially Trevor's first volume on design aspects) will be a great starting point for you to get a handle on these.
As Martin suggested, the electric guitar has a far greater scope for 'tinkering' & making more innovative as it doesn't rely on it's acoustic properties in order to perform well. Also his case idea possibly warrants further investigation as much focus has been placed, down through the years, on producing a marvellous instrument and bugger all on what wraps around it to protect it during it's transportation! Such a case would be more marketable too! I'd say if you went on to produce your project for sales purposes then a case would shift more units than an innovative guitar, not discouraging your enthusiasm but as you can see just from this thread, not much can be done in the acoustic world without raising suspicion (although in this thread it is coming builders who have tried to sell their work rather than the player/consumer so know their market), the classical guitar world even more, Greg Smallman has been making innovative Classicals for years and still his guitars are looked upon with a suspicious eye by the majority of players (even though John Williams plays one!).
Whatever you decide we all wish you well and would still chip in with any questions you have as you progress. We love a good discussion about guitary things .

[nnickusa]

Hey Lando,

I'm just new here too, and as my wife gave me a pile of wood for Christmas, I started looking for information and found this place.

I reckon I've read 500-1000 threads here, focusing on everything from....well evrything. There's alot of information here, as well as in books.

I'd suggest you browse here and find out what's worked for these guys, and also what hasn't. Seems to be very little worry from the members here to tell what went wrong. I'm sure My list will be very long....

Stick around, tho. You could learn alot and decide where you want to start....

Cheers,
Nick

[rocket]

False back to hide nasty stuff!!

[Lando]

Hey guys, had my first day at uni today, and man o man it was intense, i get to speak to my lecturer tomorrow and propose the area i want to direct my study.

i was thinking today maybe i could design an adjustable bracing system where the tension etc is adjustable in some way.

but the big question i had for you guys is, is that even a benefit? is it just better to have the most rigid/strong bracing posible? and there would be no use for somethign adjustable?

let me know guys

cheers
Lando

[kiwigeo]

i was thinking today maybe i could design an adjustable bracing system where the tension etc is adjustable in some way.

but the big question i had for you guys is, is that even a benefit? is it just better to have the most rigid/strong bracing posible? and there would be no use for somethign adjustable?

The bracing property that would most affect the performance of the top would be stiffness. The brace is attached to the top so any change in physical dimension of the brace is going to distort the top. I'd forget this idea.

If you want to make something adjustable on an acoustic it needs to be something that needs to be changed on a regular basis...like action, relief, neck relief etc.

On another thread someone was pondering on ways to deal with feedback on an acoustic guitar with pickups.

I like Matthew's idea of a guitar with interchangeable tops and backs but like he's said its not going to be widely marketable.

One thought I had last night....an acoustic guitar catering for people with a handicap.

[Lando]

hey now thats an idea, defining the handicap would be the most important thing, ive done some work designing things that are aimed at improving useability for a handicapped user.

mayeb for more elderly users with arthritis (then killer of guitar playing) who have played thier whole life and cant anymore?

now we are talking!
booya

[Allen]

I can't see for the life of me how you would make a top with adjustable stiffness or whatever you would want to call it. And then the question is why would you?

The entire goal of building a top is to get them light, yet stiff in the places you want them stiff, compliant in other places. All of us go to great lengths to get this dialled in right from getting the top to the correct thickness, then bracing with stock that we know its properties, and in a size and in a manner that we have become intimately in tune with. We know how much to take off here or there. Some do it completely by feel, others with the aid of test equipment to get the top dialled in.

From reading through the comments and questions in Trevor's section of the forum, I'm without a doubt one of the clueiest guy's anywhere in the world on that subject.

I don't know what the criteria of grading would be on this project for you, but I would assume that anyone in industrial design would be at least a little focused on designs that will have some sort of market, i.e. you could sell one or two....hopefully a lot more. With that in mind there are lot's of things could be explored. Adjustable bracing would have to be at the bottom of my list of things that would have any marketable value.

One comes to mind. There have been a few "travel guitars" out there. All making an attempt at a method of making the entire package smaller so perhaps you would be able to stow it in the overhead baggage compartment on an airline. Ones I've seen have all been a little lacking in their method of disassembly and then reassembly taking the strings into consideration. Some are just plain ugly. As well the case that would house such an instrument complying with the airlines baggage rules. Now make this same instrument one that a traveling muso would want to own, be able to use on stage plugged in, sound great acoustically and I think you would have a winner.

[Nick]

Hey guys, had my first day at uni today, and man o man it was intense, i get to speak to my lecturer tomorrow and propose the area i want to direct my study.

i was thinking today maybe i could design an adjustable bracing system where the tension etc is adjustable in some way.

but the big question i had for you guys is, is that even a benefit? is it just better to have the most rigid/strong bracing posible? and there would be no use for somethign adjustable?

let me know guys

cheers
Lando

Glad to hear that your mind is working overtime Lando! It is one of the most fun parts of any build, designing that special guitar in your head first & trying to forsee any problems & then solving them, well I enjoy it anyway.
I'm not sure adjustable bracing would be of any benefit, the desgn principle behind bracing is to a) be strong enough to hold the top in shape (either flat or in a domed shape) when 200+ Lbs of string pull is trying to rip it out of shape & b) yet be light enough to enable the top to vibrate with as much freedom, yet in a controlled manner, as possible. It is a fine balance getting this right!
What do you see as being the benefit of an adjustable bracing system? Would it be to allow the player to change the shape of the top (i.e add more or reduce soundboard radius) or to allow compensation of the bridge 'tilt' (known as bellying) after the full amount of string pull is on it? Either way a well meaning player could either kill the sound of a guitar or completely wreck it! by making the wrong adjustment because they aren't fully aware of what it is they are changing in the structure. It's not an impossible task, design wise, but could negate any benefit over a conventional bracing system.
On a side note,
While I was typing this I was reminded of the Batson brothers as another innovative company, you may wish to check them out. I seem to remember they used a different style of bracing (triangulated 'beams') and had only a soundport & no soundhole. They have a different sound.

[jeffhigh]

Good to see you still here Lando with us critical Buggers..
I hope we see something really unusual develop with your project.

[Chalks]

Hi Lando. I'll second that. Keep hanging in there. These very esteemed builders are about as passionate as it gets and have seen many a new person set the very same goals as you and answered many an inquiry about this stuff. Passing on years of knowledge and learning, hard won and all just for the love of it.
As you have heard many things have been tried and tried and tried. But innovation is about making improvements. Sometimes they are brand new massive paradigm shifts and sometimes they are small incremental improvements. Dream big. You might be the one that knowingly or unwittingly finds the holy grail or makes a small step toward it. Just be assured that this forum will give you a honest appraisal of your path.
A couple of things though your Industrial Design course takes into consideration designing sustainable manufacturing processes? If so, maybe this is where you may innovate volume production of high quality instruments. It may not be in the design of a better bracing system, which obviously has many years of tried and tested designs. Acceptance by the community on changes to these elements will be very difficult to achieve based on one build by a person new to luthiery and therefore little community credibility. No offense meant. The other is to consider the innovations that can be brought to ownership of a fine instrument by the design of a case that maintains the integrity of the instrument through out its life cycle. Safe stowage, travel, humidity, access etc. A good marketable product the many thousand of existing instruments could benefit from as well as the new.

Stay with it. Listen and ask questions. Take the hits and learn.

Greg

[matthew]

alll that ... and you can still make a guitar on the side!

[kiwigeo]

I build my classicals and of late a uke using the Spanish method which entails building on a workboard. Charles Fox made a universal work board but I think there's room for further development on this piece of equipment.

The mission would be to develop a versatile workboard that can cater for all instrument body shapes and sizes. Aspects such as access for clamps would need to be considered. Cost of course would be important......luthiers dont like paying lots of dosh for jigs.

The key to making a marketable jig or tool is developing something that is hard for someone to make themselves at reasonable cost.

[Lando]

this is why i love this forum, you guys a madly helpful and your firing ideas my way and they are all helpful and really useful.

i have to write these all down and see what my lecturer thinks is a better idea and more marketable a guess because your right Allen, you need to be able to say that this is a worthwhile product to design and that there is an openign in the market to sell this.

well im off to class fellas, wish me luck

cheers

lando

[Lando]

hey guys

proposed a whole list of ideas to my lecturer today, including everything you guys put forward, explaining the reason behind them all.

I chatted with him and he aimed me down the Carbon Fibre Acoustic guitar idea that i put forward to him, as it stands i think i can make a good project and product from this, the only challenge is how to make it different and marketable from Rainsong and Blackbird guitars, who also make CF acoustics.

he mentioned maybe using a different composite material for it, Im going to try and organise a time to chat with the engineers at Mawsons Lake campus about it.

decisions decisions

what do you guys think? is it a good idea?

cheers

Lando

[Paul B]

Why not start with C&N? Cumpiano has a really good section on designing a guitar. A lot of us learned by following C&N. If you seriously aim to be a designer, then you really should study those who came before you, and Cumpiano and Natelson is about the best starting point I can think of. At the very least it will give you a point of departure that is proven. Otherwise you'll just design another guitar shaped object, and that just ain't right for a first guitar. You'll find a link to the book somewhere here: http://www.cumpiano.com/.

[Nick]

Far less restrictions with regards to design/structural strength so there's a greater scope for coming up with a differently shaped guitar (almost an electric cross over in that there are not fixed 'shapes' in the electric realm) and perhaps could be more ergonomic to the player. You probably wouldn't want to make anything too 'out there', as I stated earlier the guitar world is a suspicious place & any guitar that has been built outside the 'norm' hasn't had as many sales as the Martin's & Taylors of this world so you would be only aiming at a very small target audience with an outrageously shaped guitar IMHO.
I've never played or even picked up a carbon fibre guitar (apart from the Ovation of course which isn't all CF) and I just wonder about the weight of them, I know carbon fibre bodied cars are marketed as lighter & stronger but a guitar is such a small item in comparison & can be light even when built in wood so that's one area I would investigate & be mind full of when designing your project. Good luck with it though & keep as posted as you progress!

[Lando]

yeah im not going to go too crazy with the shape of it, i was Looking at my white falcon the other night and i was thinking that is has a certain flavour i might want to try and bring, that old school cool that just sizzles, so i was thinking ithe guitar could even be an archtop type design? the logistics of that will need to be discussed between Martin and myself.
Imagine an old school looking body, made with modern looking materials, rerto-cool anyone?

man i am getting so excited!

i want to get this design underway! i just wish i could fast forward past the boring paperwork side and get sketching!

[kiwigeo]

Lando,

Im back in Adelaide at the moment but not sure how long I'll be here...I may be heading back to Perth on Sunday. My wife has first dibs on me but if things get delayed any more at work or a cyclone pope up then I may be able to squeeze you in for a visit sometime next week. I'll keep you posted.

Re the archtop idea....note that I dont make archtops...yet. There are others on the forum who are the archie gurus. My domain is classicals and steel stinrgs....and lutes.

mmmmmmmm A carbon fibre lute

[Kim]

I chatted with him and he aimed me down the Carbon Fibre Acoustic guitar idea that i put forward to him, as it stands i think i can make a good project and product from this, the only challenge is how to make it different and marketable from Rainsong and Blackbird guitars, who also make CF acoustics.

Not much to offer to the conversation but 'hear-say' on that point Lando and that seems to suggest that the big drawback in marketing CF for guitars is that they all sound very much like...... CF guitars, no matter who has made them. That is not to say CF guitars are 'bad' sounding instruments, but any luthier will soon tell you that the whole topic of tone is far too subjective for any one builder to nail down a 'one size fits all' instrument and that's a blessing because 'that' is the only thing that makes this craft more appealing than building nested coffee tables for the rest of our days.

he mentioned maybe using a different composite material for it, Im going to try and organise a time to chat with the engineers at Mawsons Lake campus about it.

what do you guys think? is it a good idea?

Lando

Not saying that's a bad idea but keep in mind that the venture into CF by those who have already walked that path would most certainly have been inspired by that materials MOE and strength to weight ratio and upon that known they would have done a lot of R&D to build the better mouse trap. The problem I see in your suggestion is, to my knowledge, we don't yet have a material with those same properties that is readily available which can convincingly out perform CF. Therefore its difficult to see what alternates could be 'more' appealing within the 'contemporary' market place, and lets face it, wood will always have the traditional side of the market stitched up about as tight as a piscatorial exhaust pipe.

Cheers

Kim

[greg]

I chatted with him and he aimed me down the Carbon Fibre Acoustic guitar idea that i put forward to him, as it stands i think i can make a good project and product from this, the only challenge is how to make it different and marketable from Rainsong and Blackbird guitars, who also make CF acoustics.

he mentioned maybe using a different composite material for it, Im going to try and organise a time to chat with the engineers at Mawsons Lake campus about it.

what do you guys think? is it a good idea?

With CF much of your projects shape and construction sequence will be dictated by how you set up your molds and how they interact with your carbon material and resin of choice. The fibers are in partnership with your resin and the way you get them to meet could offer you ideas. Depending on your skill level and equipment, there is hand layup and vacuum, pre-preg and autoclave, and dry layup and vacuum infusion. Depending on resin choice you will have to consider your 'post-cure' procedure as well. Product development with composites is as much about material choices as it is about you designing a logical and repeatable build sequence.

Depending on your engineering, you can let some of the guitars form factor be dictated by the properties of the composite structure. The hollow necks you see are not there because they look cool, or even primarily for acoustics, they are there because you only need so much mass with your composite before it can be redundant and subsequently add cost and weight to your structure. Deciding on building a hollow neck as either a 2 piece unit (glued together after ward) or as a single unit offers the type of build challenge related to your moulds and construction method already mentioned.

As mentioned, resin choice and cure rate decide work flow paths and have production consequences. There are differences between epoxies and 'ester' based resins which include cure rate, strength, hardness, stability, UV resistance (which is important if your are going for the sexy CF clear finish) and materials handling. You would make different choices for a one off build than if you were going into production. Also, holding a black guitars on stage in the sun would tempt you to think about the user and how they interact with the instrument.

I would bet that solid carbon for a guitar build is not entirely necessary as well. The acoustic properties of the structure would be dictated just as much by the fiber to resin ratio as the fibre material. You can make common 'e' or 's' glass ring like a bell with good ratio's. Engineering the structure to use less expensive fibers in places where you are going for more mass to save cost has production and cost consequences. Something to consider for acoustics would be if you actually needed a solid CF structure or if you could actually incorporate other fibre materials into the matrix. You could explore the world of bamboo and hemp based fibers as well, either for structural properties or for looks.

Finish coating a black composite structure offers some research possibilities. There is the obvious UV degrading to deal with, but there may be products to incorporate or develop that reflect or dissipate some of the heat absorbing qualities.

You probably should start playing with some CAD 3D solid modeling software and look into some of the principles of moulding and casting. These things will dictate not only some of your form factor choices but also you can create the files you need to use CNC machines to mock up models and ultimately create your mould structures.

I am not sure how much time you have for this project or who is funding it, but the world of production composites is not a walk in the park. R&D is VERY expensive. Its also not a simple skill to learn. For instruments you will find it quite a bit harder to find info, equipment, materials and a knowledge/skill base in design and construction to draw from than that the world of wooden instruments. You may relish the idea of the challenge, but consider yourself warned.

Cheers

[Nick]

but the world of production composites is not a walk in the park.

Reading your post certainly makes it look that way Greg! thanks for the interesting read even though I'm not the one building with it. You've obviously done a bit with composites over the years so your post certainly add some value!

[greg]

....thanks for the interesting read even though I'm not the one building with it. You've obviously done a bit with composites over the years so your post certainly add some value!

I have done a bit, yes. Mostly marine and industrial. Even though I have never built an instrument before, I am confident that I have the skill base and composites experience to produce an instrument and a production process that could equal what the market currently offers. I have often thought about building a composite guitar. Even though I have a storeroom with a good selection of carbon, glass, resins, laminating supplies, cores, as well as CAD design skills/software, access to CNC machining (for free), and a selection of contacts with favors to pull, I always stop short and shake my head and mumble something about how nuts that thought is. Even for a one off its a VERY time consuming, expensive, wasteful and toxic process just to get to a finished mold stage. Then you have to build the instrument. Even I would build several wooden instruments before attempting a composite one. And if I was serious about bringing a product to market with either design or material differences I would be buying some of the competitions guitars and measuring them in every possible manner before cutting them into pieces and putting them under an electron microscope to check the quality of the laminate.

One clarification to my post regarding resin to fiber ratio's... It assumed that you had a method of controlling how much gas was left in the laminate. Differences in 'airation' percentages and distribution will affect the resonant qualities of your structure.

greg

[Lando]

...I would be buying some of the competitions guitars and measuring them in every possible manner before cutting them into pieces and putting them under an electron microscope to check the quality of the laminate.

you do remember im a student right?......im poor as can be without living on the street ha ha ha
gotta save my pennies for materials through-out the year of study, and its going to be an expensive one this year.

Thanks Greg, i agree with Martin you have added heaps of value and stuff to think about on this project. The idea about mixing the different composites like hemp and bamboo would be awesome in the sustainable design area.
At the same time you made it seem more terrifying than i already thought it was.....thanks? ha ha ha

I have the entire year to gets this product completed from start to finished prototype. Putting all my sketching, styling, engineering, and CAD skills to the test.
Im going to be covering all areas, including the manufacturing side of it all, Carbon Fibre or not, i WILL have a new guitar designed and made by the end of my year.

cheers guys

Lando