Hi. First time builder Questions.

[greg]

Hello. I would like to build a guitar with my 14 year old son. He is a keen guitarist, and when he expressed his interest in a project like this I said I would help him achieve his goal. I have a back ground in boat building and marine design, both in wood composite and foam sandwich construction. Although I do not build boats professionally anymore, I still have a variety of tools, a small home workshop and a set of woodworking skills that I could use as a start for a guitar building project. The college where my son attends does not have a woodworking program that would cater for his interest either. We are currently reading through the book "Guitar Making-Tradition and Technology" by Cumpiano and Natelson.

I have a couple of questions about building classical guitars here in New Zealand.

1. Is there a better book or method we should consider? I am comfortable with using both hand and power tools, sharpening chisels and plane blades, building jigs etc.

2. How realistic is it to make a decent playable first time project? My concern is that my son who has no wood working skills can have an experience with an pleasing end result. I will help him all the way but will not do it for him.

3. Sourcing material here in New Zealand. Are there NZ grown species we could use... or what is the normal course of action... ordering from overseas? I can do some re sawing of larger stock so we do not have to go with pre machined and sized stock.

Any advice to get us started would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Greg.

[Philstix]

I don't know enough about all the different books to comment on question 1 . As to question 2, yes you can make something worth playing your first time out even with little previous experience. That will depend on your patience and attention to detail. But it is certainly achievable. If you have the ability to resaw you are far beyond the tooling I had on my first one and it still sounds pretty good. As to question 3, everything I see on this forum tells me that local timbers in New Zealand give you a great deal of choice of materials. I live in the pacific northwest so top woods are plentiful but back and side woods are a little limited here.
All this is to say, go for it! There is no better feeling than stringing up a guitar that you have made and making it sing.

[seeaxe]

1. Is there a better book or method we should consider? I am comfortable with using both hand and power tools, sharpening chisels and plane blades, building jigs etc.

2. How realistic is it to make a decent playable first time project? My concern is that my son who has no wood working skills can have an experience with an pleasing end result. I will help him all the way but will not do it for him.

3. Sourcing material here in New Zealand. Are there NZ grown species we could use... or what is the normal course of action... ordering from overseas? I can do some re sawing of larger stock so we do not have to go with pre machined and sized stock.

Any advice to get us started would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Greg.

Hi Greg, welcome to Luthiers Anonymous .

You will find this is a great place to ask questions, you will get all sorts of answers, from all sorts of people, but all of them with a love of doing what you are about to do.

My situation is that I have built a few guitars but am not far ahead of where you are. Still lots to learn.
My answers to your questions:
1. Thats reckoned to be the Bible. If you are in Auckland, most of the others are in the Library and are surprisingly available.
2. Very realistic. I dont know too many beginners who have not been surprised at how good the first one turns out.
3. Depends, read on.

My 14 year olds had fairly short attention spans, so if you want a good result quick, I suggest a kit set. I started that way, so I am a bit biased, but the main reason is that the time consuming and very tricky bits are done for you. Dont worry, there are plenty of challenges left, so it wont be easy.

If you go the kitset way then you will probably buy from overseas. I bought a classical kitset from Australian Luthier Supplies in Aus. That turned out OK. Luthiers Mercantile in US (http://www.lmii.com) do very good kitsets and you can customise them depending on how much woodwork you are confident doing. Stewart Macdonald in US (http://www.stewmac.com) have less in their range but are amazingly quick. They will deliver stuff to your door in three to four days. It costs a bit to mail over but you just have to get over that, and go for it.

The best thing about these sites is the choice of woods you have, especially lmii.

If you are keen on NZ woods then you proably won't get a kitset. Rarefind Woods in Hamilton have some wood cut into guitar sizes. However a lot of it is old trees planted on farms, like walnut and others, that are not really indigenous NZ timber anyway. We dont have many guitar-friendly hardwoods for the back and sides. There is a guy on this forum making amazing guitars from Kauri - Christiaan - if you reading this, you might like to chip in with a few tips????

Otherwise you are into timber shops and resawing stuff. Thats OK if its fully seasoned and quarter swan, etc, but you generally struggle to find wood wide enough to make a two-piece back.

The soundboard is probably the most important piece of the guitar. Its pretty hard to find good quality quarterswan spruce or cedar in the wood shops. So in my opnion, if you end up sending off to overseas for that, then why not buy the other bits as well? I'll leave that over to you.

By the way, if you are in or passing through Auckland, I'd be happy to have an extended chat and assist if I can.

Good luck with your project!

PS - buy an amp - he is going to want to make an electric next.

[J.F. Custom]

Hi Greg.

My answers to your questions are as follows.

1 - The Cumpiano/Natelson book is quite thorough and popular. If I had to choose just one though, I'd go for "Making Master Guitars" by Roy Courtnall.

2 - Very realistic. But the caveat is patience. Take your time to do each step properly - as long as it takes to do so. The guitar to be playable will be the sum of all the little parts and how well you did them. If you take this approach, there is no reason the end result couldn't be excellent.

3 - Can't help with native NZ timbers outside of Kauri, which has been used with success.

Finally you have more prior skill and probably tools than many start out with. As for 14 year olds, well, I built my first at 16 with no help and parents that actively told me to stop dreaming... So I think between you both, you'll do alright.

Hope it helps and good luck.

Jeremy.

[Bruce McC]

Hi Greg

I am only a beginner but I found Cumpiano to be a good reference
when starting on my first guitar. I also had the advantage of attending
guitar building classes at a local evening college. Regretably the course
folded through lack of numbers.
If it is at all possible try and find a local luthier/member of this forum
who is happy to answer any questions or pass on the benefit of their
experience. I have been fortunate in being able to do so. If this is
not possible use this forum for questions, also checkout the tutorials
section and use the search facility, there is a wealth of information if
you only have the time to go looking for it.

[christian]

Hi Greg,

and welcome to the forum,
In regards to your questions, you are off to a great start with the cumpiano bible of guitarmaking, many of us began our journey reading this book.
you can certainly build a decent guitar on your first attempt, just take your time and be patient, there will be many questions along the way, if you are unsure of anything, we are all willing helpers, oh and buy a good plan of a classical to follow !!!
I'm discovering great examples of New zealand natives suitable for guitars all the time.
If you are keen on using Natives for your classical build.
I would suggest using Kauri for your top, if you can't find any I could supply you one.
for the back and sides go for something like Pohutakawa or Puriri, Heart Rimu, or Taraire I think Rare Find timbers may have some sets of these.
puriri is an awesome timber for fretboards and bridges, for the neck I'd use kauri too.
hope that helps,feel free to message me if you need more info.

Cheers,

Christian

[greg]

Thank you for all the feed back and offers of advice. What a great welcome

After a talk with my son, he has decided to make his guitar out of more traditional woods, so the NZ native option will be moved to another day. I noticed a reference to Alaskan yellow cedar being used for back and sides in Cumpiano and Natelson p.96. I actually have some that would be suitable for sides and 3 piece backs. I am wondering if we can also use this for the neck blanks and bracing as well. We are thinking of using a spruce variety for tops rather than cedar. Any thoughts?

buy a good plan of a classical to follow !!!

Its my understanding that the Cumpiano and Natelson book guides you through a plan that they themselves build. Is there something else we could or should consider before we get going?

Greg.

[kiwigeo]

Thank you for all the feed back and offers of advice. What a great welcome

After a talk with my son, he has decided to make his guitar out of more traditional woods, so the NZ native option will be moved to another day. I noticed a reference to Alaskan yellow cedar being used for back and sides in Cumpiano and Natelson p.96. I actually have some that would be suitable for sides and 3 piece backs. I am wondering if we can also use this for the neck blanks and bracing as well. We are thinking of using a spruce variety for tops rather than cedar. Any thoughts?

buy a good plan of a classical to follow !!!

Its my understanding that the Cumpiano and Natelson book guides you through a plan that they themselves build. Is there something else we could or should consider before we get going?

Greg.

Hi Greg,

Comments from me:

1. If youre following C and N's book and youre building a classical a plan isnt really necessary. C and N provide instruction for laying out the neck and you can make up a top/back template by tracing around an existing instrument. Brace layout and dimensions of the rest of the instrument are covered in the text of the book. Note that Cumpiano has changed his thoughts on a few aspects of construction such as neck joints etc and you should read notes to this effect on his website.
2. Woods. My first builds were done with Indian Rosewood for back and sides (easy to bend), spanish cedar or sapelle for the neck and sitka spruce for the top. Sitka is an easy spruce to work with and less prone to damage during construction that Engleman. Lutz spruce is another nice spruce for tops.

Cheers Martin

[Ben]

Hi Greg,

Definitely agree with what some of the others have said about kits. Stewmac is great and as one of the other members said they deliver with in 4 or so days. I have found out dependng on the price that it is sometimes cheaper to get it sent by express post instead of their normal post.

Good luck with the build!

Ben

[simonm]

I did my first guitar with the N&C book. Its a good book. Later I got the Courtnall book. Since I have Courtnall I rarely look in the other but then I am only doing classicals at the moment. I blow up the Courtnall plans on an xerox workstation pro at work - its not quite big enough so I have to cut and paste a bit. The plans are exactly 50% (numbers on the the graph paper are not always right). There is a third book which I like a lot: Michael Collins book on making Maccaferrie style laminated guitars. Excellent read and some great general tips even if you aren't interested in the method. (e.g. no radius dishes or the like needed the way he does it and his sharpening of a cabinet scraper are two things that come to mind ).

I've used the StewMac kits both the D and the 00 and also two of the much cheaper classical kits from madinter in Spain. I've always heard great things about the lmii kits too but I haven't used them myself. Martin (the company) also sells kits but they are pricier.

With a little care the StewMacs will turn out every bit as good as a bought instrument with a US$2,500 sticker on it - maybe better. I used nice wood binding and herringbone purfling on mine (I can't remember if the purfling was standard when I got the kits but the ebony binding was extra). They give you an excellent dvd with the kit.

Personally I prefer the 00 now as the D is not a, finger-picking, sit on the sofa, friendly shape. But sound wise they are both very good.

The cheaper (1/3 the price) Spanish kits (I've seen similar kits somewhere sourced in China by a Japanese company but I think these are problem genuinely spanish) are good value. The back and sides is a very nice laminate and they use a mortice and tenon on both the nylon and steel string variants. The tops are perfectly good solid spruce. The fit isn't as good as the stew macs and you can certainly make the top a little lighter than the out of the box thickness. The first madinter one I did was my classical "player" for two years. There is another madrid based company which does kits but again I have no experience of them

I've been tempted to grab a few more of the cheap kits and see what I can do with them with my current skill level but I don't have the space - actually I can't build anything at the moment as there are so many guitars around the apartment at the moment. building is addictive...

If you decided to go the kit way - I'm sure some one local could knock you up one for a reasonable price. The two main reasons to go with a kit are because you don't have a way to bend the sides (one of the easiest things once you have a reasonable bending iron) or because you don't have a bandsaw for helping with making the neck. Everything else is easy to do with a minimum of tools.

[simso]

I would say buy a kit first.

Seen to many unfinshed projects becuase it got the better of the builder, even wuith the kits theres a big learning curve, jigging shaping clamping gluing sanding finishing fretting and so forth, all these are big hurdles for young fellas new to the game. Buy one build one, get the confidence and then attack your local woods, you will be a better builder and more than likely not give up..

[greg]

Thanks for all the input. We will be starting in a couple of weeks when school holidays begin.

[greg]

Couple more questions if you don't mind...

1. As I have been trolling through this forum, and the web generally, looking for acoustic guitars being made, so far every build I have come across has the sides bent into a mould and held in place with what looks like rigging screws. I have come across no builds using the 'free' form system advocated in the C&N book I have. Does the mould system come from the Courtnall Making Master Guitars book? I have gone to my local library (Auckland) and they do not have the Courtnall book at all so I can't check. I can get the Sloane book though.

What is the main reason why the mould system is so prevalent? Does it have to do with keeping the sides in shape after being bent? Does it get a better result? Perhaps it has something to do with leaving the project for an extended period of time while you do other things...


2. I am wanting to make my bending iron (I am following the C&N book). I have scrounged this piece of aluminium pipe





Is aliminium tube suitable? Dimensions are 5.2mm wall, 89mm OD, 300mm long. You can see it has a cap welded on one end already.

The C&N book talks about an electric ceramic element to place inside the pipe or a gas bottle. What is the consensus on building your bending pipe and heating it.

Thanks
Greg.

[kiwigeo]

Couple more questions if you don't mind...

1. As I have been trolling through this forum, and the web generally, looking for acoustic guitars being made, so far every build I have come across has the sides bent into a mould and held in place with what looks like rigging screws. I have come across no builds using the 'free' form system advocated in the C&N book I have. Does the mould system come from the Courtnall Making Master Guitars book? I have gone to my local library (Auckland) and they do not have the Courtnall book at all so I can't check. I can get the Sloane book though.

What is the main reason why the mould system is so prevalent? Does it have to do with keeping the sides in shape after being bent? Does it get a better result? Perhaps it has something to do with leaving the project for an extended period of time while you do other things...

Courtnall covers building a work board. Why use a workboard rather than an external mould? Two reasons I can think of:

1. The neck and top are integral when building with the Spanish method. Some builders use a modified external mould for building spanish style.
2. A work board allows building a variety of body sizes. An external mould can only be used for the size/body style it's designed for.

I actually build my steel strings (body and neck built seperately) using my classical workboard...I just find it a bit simpler using one workboard rather than having a bunch of moulds cluttering up my already cramped workshop.

[Marc]

Learned luthiers please chip in, I have yet to finish my first flamenco guitar so comparativley I know zip.
Hi Wanado,
For the back and sides you can also use nz poplar, sycamore or macrocarpa alias Montrey Cypress.the only thing is that they are a bit plain compared to rosewood. Well actually very plain to put such alot of work into. Poplar and sycamore are also used for cello sides and backs.Rarefind timbers have a varied selection of wood, good service too, mysterious woods like Witch Elm and Tulip wood. For a beginner it's hard to know what to go for.
I went for a cherry wood back and sides, which was bloody hard to bend but the guitar smells like... Cherries!

The idea of the spanish method is not to build any stress into the body of your guitar, although in my case I very (very) slightly forced the sides together when gluing.
Moulds create mirror perfect shapes but I pretty sure none of the great luthiers of the past worried about that.
Guys, please correct me if I'm wrong, my comments are based on lots of research and a tiny bit of experience.

[Lillian]

Greg, for bending iron thoughts check out these threads.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2792

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2258

http://soundsalon.com/Make_a_Bending_Iron.html

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1925

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1735

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1023