To graft or not to graft, that is the question.

[Nick]

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"Originally Posted on:Sun Jun 13, 2010"


So after building the Selmer Macs using end grafts and the archtops using a close fitting butt joint (seems abit ironic calling it that! ), my latest two I've tried to match the grain features and go with a butt joint, making the join as near invisible as possible (but not too late to add a graft).
Just wondering what others opinions are on the tail graft, why do we do it? is it a good way to hide a bad join of the sides (or allow us to not worry about this join too much during bending and glue up) or is it a purely asthetic thing?
Also, what has got me worried, is that on the cheaper mass produced guitars they don't use a graft so do you think it looks cheap without one? Personally I still prefer the 'seamless joint' look at this stage for these two, but would hate to think of punters looking at them and thinking it cheap & 'unfinished' or horror of horrors, a Korean knockoff Shocked. One has the potential to be seen (and played hopefully) by some of this country's top Muso's so maximum initial impact is a factor. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[Kim]

Nick,

If the side set has the grain an contrast to make a feature of it, I think a butt joint looks very classy, but unless the wood by way of an outstanding bookmatch really lends itself to this feature, I don't see the point and prefer the look of an end graft.

Like many things, I would let the wood decide.

Cheers

Kim

[Allen]

I've done it both ways, but for my taste, I prefer the end graft and make it a feature of the binding scheme.

[Dennis Leahy]

Hi Nick,

Generally speaking, I think that an end graft, and especially an end graft that has mitered purflings (mitered into the bindings) is a level of magnitude classier than a plain ol' vanilla butt joint. But like Kim, I could see where an exceptionally dynamic/busy/figured set of sides might look better omitting the end graft.

And yes, if you stuff up a butt joint, then you can always come back and add an end graft (and tell no one! )

Dennis

[DarwinStrings]

I am not sure that anyone could see one of your guitars as a Korean knockoff Nick, if they do I guess they are not your type of customer. I haven't thought about why, I like the look of the graft but a guitar with an invisible butt sounds like good humour to me and any well crafted joint looks great.

Jim

Life is good when you are amongst the wood

[kiwigeo]

Toejam wrote:
I am not sure that anyone could see one of your guitars as a Korean knockoff Nick, if they do I guess they are not your type of customer.

Anybody who thinks Nick's creations are Korean knockoffs is too stupid to be let anywhere near a musical instrument.

[Nick]

Thanks guys, I'm building with some nice flamed Californian Laurel, will try & get some butt photo's tomorrow to put up so you can chime in with Kindling or keeper . I'm going to bind in plain Ebony (no purfling) so the end graft wouldn't be anything to fancy anyway.

[Nick]

After looking at the pictures I've decided I will do a graft on No1 but may leave No2 as it has some interest.
Both sides have been 'wetted'
No1 hasn't got as much going on at the butt as the rest of the sides

IMG_1111.JPG (62.11 KiB) Viewed 19957 times

& No2.

IMG_1115.JPG (58.74 KiB) Viewed 19957 times

What's the concensus among you guys? I'm not usually dithery about these things & tend to have things planned well in advance but this has been niggling away at the back of me noggin since the day I glued them together.

[christian]

Nick it looks awesome !!! personally i would'nt add a graft to that beautiful join.

Christian.

[liam_fnq]

personally I think the butt strip is one of those elements that set the hand-made apart from the factory built instruments but then again Nick, those butts of yours look exceptionally tight. i think you'd definitely struggle to see the sun shining between them

[Kim]

Nick O wrote:
After looking at the pictures I've decided I will do a graft on No1 but may leave No2 as it has some interest.

That is what the wood is telling me as well Nick, great choice.

Cheers

Kim

[Dennis Leahy]

Kim wrote:

Nick O wrote:
After looking at the pictures I've decided I will do a graft on No1 but may leave No2 as it has some interest.

That is what the wood is telling me as well Nick, great choice.

Cheers

Kim

I thought the same thing.

Those are damn fine but joints! I think # 1, with the little gray patch that lightly breaks the symmetry, will benefit from the graft.

Dennis

p.s. What are the 4 holes in the neck block? Could this be another double-back and those are vent holes?

[Lillian]

What Dennis said.

[kiwigeo]

Graft it

[Allen]

Both those joins are exceptional and you should probably put together a tutorial on how you achieve such a snug fit.

I still like the end graft treatment as part of the binding scheme, but I sure wouldn't feel that either of them would be less for it, if they didn't get one included.

[John Steele]

Next one's I start I think I will loose the graft.
It's nicely done Nick, what's not to like?

[Peter T]

Go with your gut, leave the butt.

[kiwigeo]

Peter T wrote:
Go with your gut, leave the butt.

I find cycling works off the gut but Ive still got the butt.

[Nick]

Dennis Leahy wrote:
What are the 4 holes in the neck block? Could this be another double-back and those are vent holes?

And the winner of the burn't sausage is Mr Leahy Another double back Dennis, either watch here or a certain other good forum ( ) for the build/s.

[J.F. Custom]

Chiming in late here I'm afraid...

Personally, I prefer grafts for much the reason Allen does. I just like the potential it provides to mesh all the elements together. I prefer the definition and separation over the single continuous side look.

That second pic is a sexy join though Nick. But I'd still graft it! Even minimally so as not to detract from the nicely bookmatched grain; yet still provide some element to break it up - a focus point.

You did ask after all

Jeremy.

[Pete Howlett]

Gettting that perfect bookmatch is sometimes difficult with the interesting wood we all love to use and often, you need the end graft to break up the visual assymetry.

[Arnt]

Violin family instruments always have butt joints, as do lots of arch top guitars. I do A-style mandolins this way, but I've never done it on a guitar, on those I usually do the mitered side purfling thing. Here's a dread I just finished, which has no side purflings, so I thought about going with a butt joint, but I decided on an "almost invisible" wedge.

img~

[Nick]

That's where I got the hang of doing butt joints Arnt. My first acoustic builds were the archtops & thanks to Mr Benedetto who showed me how easy they were!

Jury's still out on this but I will have to make a decision soon as I'm getting closer to the binding step. I will go with my original choice and graft the first as this area of the grain needs a little "livening" up, scratching my head with the second, this is going to be the one I supply to the customer now after contemplating grain e.t.c. Just think it's going to sparkle that little bit more.

[Nick]

Ok may I present my solution to my dilema. I didn't want to do the 'squared' across at the tail solution. I don't see anything wrong with doing that, by the way, it's just I felt that the grain patterns didn't lend themselves to the look. The original shot of the one that had some feature

IMG_1115.JPG (58.74 KiB) Viewed 19956 times

I decided not to go with a full graft but just to do enough that it looked like I've spent abit of time on it rather than just gluing two bits of wood together

IMG_1263.JPG (61.15 KiB) Viewed 19956 times

And the other in it's original guise

IMG_1111.JPG (62.11 KiB) Viewed 19956 times

I decided to stick with the fern theme I'd started in the rosette.

IMG_1259.JPG (68.83 KiB) Viewed 19956 times

Not sure I'm 100% in favour of it now I see it in the flesh but it's still able to be changed for something else, just thought I'd canvas opinion from the forum members.

IMG_1262.JPG (66.88 KiB) Viewed 19956 times

[Lillian]

Nick, they are both well executed. If I had to pick between the two, I'd go with the demi-end graft. The fern doesn't do much for me. I may feel differently once the finish is on it though. But for the moment it looks like a bit of an afterthought to me.